5 ms·

For most people who were protesting this proposal was the last straw and what you can't see from these posts that people were saying "Orban get lost!" and "Down

by edem 12y ago

For most people who were protesting this proposal was the last straw and what you can't see from these posts that people were saying "Orban get lost!" and "Down with the corrupt government!" during those events. People started talking about a much needed referendum to get rid of Orban and his corrupt retinue so after the first protest this started to be about much more than the internet tax. This momentum is broken now since we got what we wanted initially. We'll see what happens next.

AlyssaRowan 12y ago
Indeed, that might be why, but I didn't think he was particularly worried about public opinion at this stage. Maybe it's next year's election looming? Still, I'm concerned about how that's going to go. I have family members over there. I've Heard Stories about Viktor Orbán. I've made sure they have an emergency exit strategy if things go any further south.
rektide 12y ago
Do you have any articles you would point to that describe the governmental machinations? You pose this as a part of a larger arc, and I'd love to see more effort done to make it clear what that arc is, what this is a part of. I did a little digging around for articles on the 27th (as that wonderful picture of the protests made the round, https://twitter.com/RyanHeathWriter/status/527406811792805888 https://twitter.com/RyanHeathWriter/status/52740681179280588...). I ran into Slow and Steady: Hungary's Media Clampdown which seemed a reasonable enough job at illustrating that this isn't just a vie against the internet or a vie for revenue, it's part of a longer programme very deliberately creating Soft Censorship, and installing new undemocratic ways for the politicos to grab onto power. https://www.ifex.org/hungary/2014/07/28/slow_steady/ https://www.ifex.org/hungary/2014/07/28/slow_steady/
- j2kun 12y ago
  There is also the erection of a monument in Budapest implying that Hungary did not comply with the Nazis (bordering on Holocaust denial, iirc).
- afterburner 12y ago
  Krugman has reposted several entire articles on his blog by Kim Lane Scheppele on the rising authoritarianism in Hungary: http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/?s=hungary&_r=0 http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/?s=hungary&_r=0
  - dmix 12y ago
    Is it me or we entering a new golden age of authoritarianism? Unlike in the last century, this time around it's not under the guise of nationalism or communism, but in representative democracies where the executive branches consumes greater and greater power, while weakening the well-vetted and centuries old safe-guards that were in place to prevent power-abuse. Whenever the states sky-rocketing growth in power is questioned by the media or the citizenry the leaders can point to the fact that - hey it's still a democracy, you voted us in. So the populous is placated and ignorant to the fact the democratic process has been made impotent.
    - throwaway344 12y ago
      I disagree. Many democracies around the world are admittedly flawed, but regardless, a larger portion of humanity today lives in democratic countries than anytime in history.
      - AnthonyMouse 12y ago
        Large, powerful, democracy. Pick two. You can have a powerful democracy with a small number of constituents because then an individual has a realistic capacity to rally his neighbors and make change when something sour is going on. You can have a large democracy when the government's power is strictly limited to a small well-defined area of influence, because then most constituents can realistically remain informed about that specific area of influence. You cannot have a large, powerful democracy. A large democracy with many powers can't resemble a direct democracy because constituents can't realistically remain informed on so many issues. But it also can't resemble a republic because that forces voters to choose between e.g. the party that promotes censorship and the party that promotes police militarization, without sufficient influence to affect the position of either party. The problem is that more and more of the things people describe as "democracies" are large and powerful.
- girmad 12y ago
  A couple off the top of my head: Gov't nationalizing private pension funds (=stealing): http://www.ipe.com/nightmare-in-hungary-as-government-nationalises-pension-funds/38105.fullarticle http://www.ipe.com/nightmare-in-hungary-as-government-nation... Corruption scandal over tobacco stores (where shops were required by law to get licenses, which were then awarded to friends and family): http://blogs.ft.com/beyond-brics/2013/07/01/hungarys-tobacco-scandal/ http://blogs.ft.com/beyond-brics/2013/07/01/hungarys-tobacco... You can also Google MediaLaws, nationalization of other key industries such as parking meters, the constant rewriting of the constitution (modified more often than I push to Github), the 9(!) year appointment of a friendly Chief District Attorney, and most recently the 3000 Billion HUF deal (15B USD) w Russia to construct nuclear power plants that reeks of corruption. US has also started banning some Hungarian VIPs, something that's typically reserved vs Russians... http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/20/us-usa-hungary-idUSKCN0I921220141020 http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/20/us-usa-hungary-idU...

by edem 12y ago

AlyssaRowan 12y ago

Indeed, that might be why, but I didn't think he was particularly worried about public opinion at this stage. Maybe it's next year's election looming? Still, I'm concerned about how that's going to go. I have family members over there. I've Heard Stories about Viktor Orbán. I've made sure they have an emergency exit strategy if things go any further south.

rektide 12y ago

Do you have any articles you would point to that describe the governmental machinations? You pose this as a part of a larger arc, and I'd love to see more effort done to make it clear what that arc is, what this is a part of. I did a little digging around for articles on the 27th (as that wonderful picture of the protests made the round, https://twitter.com/RyanHeathWriter/status/527406811792805888 https://twitter.com/RyanHeathWriter/status/52740681179280588...). I ran into Slow and Steady: Hungary's Media Clampdown which seemed a reasonable enough job at illustrating that this isn't just a vie against the internet or a vie for revenue, it's part of a longer programme very deliberately creating Soft Censorship, and installing new undemocratic ways for the politicos to grab onto power. https://www.ifex.org/hungary/2014/07/28/slow_steady/ https://www.ifex.org/hungary/2014/07/28/slow_steady/

j2kun 12y ago
There is also the erection of a monument in Budapest implying that Hungary did not comply with the Nazis (bordering on Holocaust denial, iirc).
afterburner 12y ago
Krugman has reposted several entire articles on his blog by Kim Lane Scheppele on the rising authoritarianism in Hungary: http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/?s=hungary&_r=0 http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/?s=hungary&_r=0
- dmix 12y ago
  Is it me or we entering a new golden age of authoritarianism? Unlike in the last century, this time around it's not under the guise of nationalism or communism, but in representative democracies where the executive branches consumes greater and greater power, while weakening the well-vetted and centuries old safe-guards that were in place to prevent power-abuse. Whenever the states sky-rocketing growth in power is questioned by the media or the citizenry the leaders can point to the fact that - hey it's still a democracy, you voted us in. So the populous is placated and ignorant to the fact the democratic process has been made impotent.
  - throwaway344 12y ago
    I disagree. Many democracies around the world are admittedly flawed, but regardless, a larger portion of humanity today lives in democratic countries than anytime in history.
    - AnthonyMouse 12y ago
      Large, powerful, democracy. Pick two. You can have a powerful democracy with a small number of constituents because then an individual has a realistic capacity to rally his neighbors and make change when something sour is going on. You can have a large democracy when the government's power is strictly limited to a small well-defined area of influence, because then most constituents can realistically remain informed about that specific area of influence. You cannot have a large, powerful democracy. A large democracy with many powers can't resemble a direct democracy because constituents can't realistically remain informed on so many issues. But it also can't resemble a republic because that forces voters to choose between e.g. the party that promotes censorship and the party that promotes police militarization, without sufficient influence to affect the position of either party. The problem is that more and more of the things people describe as "democracies" are large and powerful.
girmad 12y ago
A couple off the top of my head: Gov't nationalizing private pension funds (=stealing): http://www.ipe.com/nightmare-in-hungary-as-government-nationalises-pension-funds/38105.fullarticle http://www.ipe.com/nightmare-in-hungary-as-government-nation... Corruption scandal over tobacco stores (where shops were required by law to get licenses, which were then awarded to friends and family): http://blogs.ft.com/beyond-brics/2013/07/01/hungarys-tobacco-scandal/ http://blogs.ft.com/beyond-brics/2013/07/01/hungarys-tobacco... You can also Google MediaLaws, nationalization of other key industries such as parking meters, the constant rewriting of the constitution (modified more often than I push to Github), the 9(!) year appointment of a friendly Chief District Attorney, and most recently the 3000 Billion HUF deal (15B USD) w Russia to construct nuclear power plants that reeks of corruption. US has also started banning some Hungarian VIPs, something that's typically reserved vs Russians... http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/20/us-usa-hungary-idUSKCN0I921220141020 http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/20/us-usa-hungary-idU...