3 ms·

Being proud of who you are and the eay you live is different from being proud of an arbitrary superficial difference between you and others. Proud to be White

by judk 12y ago

Being proud of who you are and the eay you live is different from being proud of an arbitrary superficial difference between you and others. Proud to be White is leagues worse than proud to be American or Christian or Irish.

CamperBob2 12y ago
Sure, I'll go along with that. But sexual orientation is far more like skin color than it is like a country, religion, or sports team that you identify with for social purposes. If there is a genetic (or at least embryonic) influence behind sexual orientation -- and I believe there is -- then why take "pride" in it?
wpietri 12y ago
But contrast this with black pride. E.g., James Brown's excellent "I'm Black and I'm Proud": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VRSAVDlpDI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VRSAVDlpDI That's hugely different than the white-pride loons. Why? I think it's down to power and oppression. Black people in US society have been oppressed and marginalized for centuries. Decreasingly so, but it's still a big problem. For me, black pride and gay pride are pushing for freedom. While the white-pride people are pretty explicitly pushing against freedom.
- CamperBob2 12y ago
  It seems fairly obvious that "pride" simply isn't appropriate in either case. It only serves to cloud the issue with entitlement and expectations of privilege based on nothing in particular.
  - wpietri 12y ago
    It seems fairly obvious? Your seems-obvious meter went off when you ran it over the screen? Own your opinions. Cloaking them in false objectivity makes you look ridiculous and removes the opportunity for discussion. You think it's obvious. I don't. I do think it's obvious that you're playing the game on easy [1], though, which is why your seems-obvious meter is poorly calibrated. [1] http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/ http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-th...
    - CamperBob2 12y ago
      Ah, yes, stereotyping. It's OK When We Do It, right? Here's an idea: I'll use whatever words I want, and so will you, and we won't even ask about each others' race or gender. Because it just shouldn't matter.
      - wpietri 12y ago
        It shouldn't matter, but it does. People without experience of marginalization are frequently unsympathetic to those who are. And people who are privileged often act in ways that maintain that privilege, even when they claim their conscious motives are unrelated. Experience shapes ideas. Ideas are tested through experience. If you refuse to examine the things that shape your experience, some of your ideas will inevitably be poor.
        CamperBob2 12y ago
        Experience shapes ideas. Ideas are tested through experience. If you refuse to examine the things that shape your experience, some of your ideas will inevitably be poor. Any racist will, of course, tell me exactly the same thing.
        wpietri 12y ago
        Will they? That's exciting. How many racists have told you that you should pay deep attention to your life experience and consider how it differs from that of others? Could you name some of them? I've read a bunch of pro-slavery literature from the civil war era, and also a bunch of modern white supremacist kook literature. I have to say, empathy and consideration for people from different backgrounds was not the major theme you say it was. But hey, if I can't trust some anonymous goof, who can I trust? So I'm sure you're right.

by judk 12y ago

CamperBob2 12y ago

Sure, I'll go along with that. But sexual orientation is far more like skin color than it is like a country, religion, or sports team that you identify with for social purposes. If there is a genetic (or at least embryonic) influence behind sexual orientation -- and I believe there is -- then why take "pride" in it?

wpietri 12y ago

But contrast this with black pride. E.g., James Brown's excellent "I'm Black and I'm Proud": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VRSAVDlpDI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VRSAVDlpDI That's hugely different than the white-pride loons. Why? I think it's down to power and oppression. Black people in US society have been oppressed and marginalized for centuries. Decreasingly so, but it's still a big problem. For me, black pride and gay pride are pushing for freedom. While the white-pride people are pretty explicitly pushing against freedom.

CamperBob2 12y ago
It seems fairly obvious that "pride" simply isn't appropriate in either case. It only serves to cloud the issue with entitlement and expectations of privilege based on nothing in particular.
- wpietri 12y ago
  It seems fairly obvious? Your seems-obvious meter went off when you ran it over the screen? Own your opinions. Cloaking them in false objectivity makes you look ridiculous and removes the opportunity for discussion. You think it's obvious. I don't. I do think it's obvious that you're playing the game on easy [1], though, which is why your seems-obvious meter is poorly calibrated. [1] http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/ http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-th...
  - CamperBob2 12y ago
    Ah, yes, stereotyping. It's OK When We Do It, right? Here's an idea: I'll use whatever words I want, and so will you, and we won't even ask about each others' race or gender. Because it just shouldn't matter.
    - wpietri 12y ago
      It shouldn't matter, but it does. People without experience of marginalization are frequently unsympathetic to those who are. And people who are privileged often act in ways that maintain that privilege, even when they claim their conscious motives are unrelated. Experience shapes ideas. Ideas are tested through experience. If you refuse to examine the things that shape your experience, some of your ideas will inevitably be poor.
      - CamperBob2 12y ago
        Experience shapes ideas. Ideas are tested through experience. If you refuse to examine the things that shape your experience, some of your ideas will inevitably be poor. Any racist will, of course, tell me exactly the same thing.
        wpietri 12y ago
        Will they? That's exciting. How many racists have told you that you should pay deep attention to your life experience and consider how it differs from that of others? Could you name some of them? I've read a bunch of pro-slavery literature from the civil war era, and also a bunch of modern white supremacist kook literature. I have to say, empathy and consideration for people from different backgrounds was not the major theme you say it was. But hey, if I can't trust some anonymous goof, who can I trust? So I'm sure you're right.