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I define a language without a runtime as one that can run on bare metal without restricting yourself to a subset of the language. To use C on bare metal, the on

by kedean 12y ago

I define a language without a runtime as one that can run on bare metal without restricting yourself to a subset of the language. To use C on bare metal, the only thing you can't use is the standard library, which is not a part of the language itself (its not in the grammar, you don't need to make sure to avoid certain keywords). More simply, any program written without using an import needs to work without an operating system under it. C++ requires runtime support because if you remove the underlying system, it becomes stunted. Keywords like 'new' and 'delete' stop working entirely, and so a program with no imports is not guaranteed to work. Any language with a GC falls under this, obviously. Rust, if I remember right, requires restricting yourself in order to do things like kernel writing.

steveklabnik 12y ago
> Rust, if I remember right, requires restricting yourself in order to do things like kernel writing. Nope, you just lose the standard library, and have to implement a few language intrinsics yourself.
- kedean 12y ago
  That sounds kind of like what I mean. I consider it having a runtime if anything that can be used without importing the standard library won't work out of the box when you boot a machine to it.
  - steveklabnik 12y ago
    Well, the 'standard library' is a bit of a flexible concept in Rust. We have 'libcore' and 'libstd'. core is what's still usable without any runtime support whatsoever, and std does. I mean, none of Rust's _features_ don't work without runtime support, but libraries that need tasks (threads) and task unwinding require the runtime. Those are all library features not language features.
    - kedean 12y ago
      Ah ok, interesting. I've been contemplating converting my toy kernel (which doesn't do all that much yet) into Rust, since it doesn't use a GC for everything, could be fun.
      - steveklabnik 12y ago
        There's several kernel projects already, you'd have a small community to talk to :) #rust-osdev on Mozilla's IRC is where they hang out.
pjmlp 12y ago
How do you use ANSI C on bare hardware without help from Assembly (thus a mini-runtime) or language extensions? For the purposes of interrupt handling, IO ports (not all systems have memory mapped IO) and register access.
- kedean 12y ago
  That's not what I mean. I mean that any C you write will run with no problems as long as it doesn't depend on an outside library. It's not possible to do anything that needs interrupts, IO, or memory without an external library, which if you're that low you're gonna be writing yourself either way. Accessing individual registers is also a special behavior that doesn't really fall under using C, and regardless that totally possible without a runtime (the __asm__ keyword, thats all compiler driven). If you're going to get so specific as to call the x86 processor a runtime, then there's no point in arguing.
  - pjmlp 12y ago
    > It's not possible to do anything that needs interrupts, IO, or memory without an external library, which if you're that low you're gonna be writing yourself either way. That external library is called a runtime in compiler design classes. > Accessing individual registers is also a special behavior that doesn't really fall under using C, and regardless that totally possible without a runtime (the __asm__ keyword, thats all compiler driven). The __asm__ keyword is not part of ANSI C, it is a language extension. Not all C compilers offer support for inline assembly and in fact, a few commercial ones do not. > If you're going to get so specific as to call the x86 processor a runtime, then there's no point in arguing. Where did I mentioned anything like this?
deleted 12y ago
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by kedean 12y ago

steveklabnik 12y ago

> Rust, if I remember right, requires restricting yourself in order to do things like kernel writing. Nope, you just lose the standard library, and have to implement a few language intrinsics yourself.

kedean 12y ago
That sounds kind of like what I mean. I consider it having a runtime if anything that can be used without importing the standard library won't work out of the box when you boot a machine to it.
- steveklabnik 12y ago
  Well, the 'standard library' is a bit of a flexible concept in Rust. We have 'libcore' and 'libstd'. core is what's still usable without any runtime support whatsoever, and std does. I mean, none of Rust's _features_ don't work without runtime support, but libraries that need tasks (threads) and task unwinding require the runtime. Those are all library features not language features.
  - kedean 12y ago
    Ah ok, interesting. I've been contemplating converting my toy kernel (which doesn't do all that much yet) into Rust, since it doesn't use a GC for everything, could be fun.
    - steveklabnik 12y ago
      There's several kernel projects already, you'd have a small community to talk to :) #rust-osdev on Mozilla's IRC is where they hang out.

pjmlp 12y ago

How do you use ANSI C on bare hardware without help from Assembly (thus a mini-runtime) or language extensions? For the purposes of interrupt handling, IO ports (not all systems have memory mapped IO) and register access.

kedean 12y ago
That's not what I mean. I mean that any C you write will run with no problems as long as it doesn't depend on an outside library. It's not possible to do anything that needs interrupts, IO, or memory without an external library, which if you're that low you're gonna be writing yourself either way. Accessing individual registers is also a special behavior that doesn't really fall under using C, and regardless that totally possible without a runtime (the __asm__ keyword, thats all compiler driven). If you're going to get so specific as to call the x86 processor a runtime, then there's no point in arguing.
- pjmlp 12y ago
  > It's not possible to do anything that needs interrupts, IO, or memory without an external library, which if you're that low you're gonna be writing yourself either way. That external library is called a runtime in compiler design classes. > Accessing individual registers is also a special behavior that doesn't really fall under using C, and regardless that totally possible without a runtime (the __asm__ keyword, thats all compiler driven). The __asm__ keyword is not part of ANSI C, it is a language extension. Not all C compilers offer support for inline assembly and in fact, a few commercial ones do not. > If you're going to get so specific as to call the x86 processor a runtime, then there's no point in arguing. Where did I mentioned anything like this?

deleted 12y ago

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