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I'd like to see some comparisons of active safety (the ability to avoid crashes and retain control in adverse conditions). I suspect the improvements in handlin

by Zak 17y ago

I'd like to see some comparisons of active safety (the ability to avoid crashes and retain control in adverse conditions). I suspect the improvements in handling and braking in the average car since 1959 aren't nearly so dramatic. Aside from the SUV craze, the average front-wheel-drive[0] family sedan built today feels like it wants to fall off the road every time it encounters a corner. I have to wonder why the average car buyer doesn't seem to notice or care. I suspect most adults have, at some point in their lives driven a car with decent handling and braking. [0] Front-wheel-drive alone is not to blame for this; I've driven FWD cars that did not feel like that.

tptacek 17y ago
You think ABS, traction control, and power steering and brakes haven't made things better than '59?
- Zak 17y ago
  I said "not nearly no dramatic", not that things aren't better now. A quick search suggests that the 1959 Bel Air had power brakes and that power steering was at least optional. I'm not sure power steering is standard on all low-end cars at this point. It wasn't a few years ago. ABS and traction control are effective in some situations for mitigating the effects of driver error, but often get in the way of the corrections a skill driver is attempting to make. Additionally, they don't actually create any more traction, so they don't actually raise the limits of what the car can handle. Sure, the average car is better off with them, but getting the weight balance, suspension tuning and brake balance right matters more. A limited-slip differential is another big improvement that's been well-known for a long time, but is still rare on popular cars.
  - tptacek 17y ago
    My '94 Nissan Sentra had standard power steering. I'd be surprised to hear about a popular car made within the last 10 years that didn't have both ABS and power steering standard.
    - Zak 17y ago
      I distinctly recall driving a late '90s Saturn that didn't have power steering. According to the owner, who bought it new, it came that way and wasn't broken. As far as I can tell, power steering and brakes were relatively common 50 years ago though not as ubiquitous as they are now.
      - tptacek 17y ago
        Saturns must really suck if Nissan's entry-level car had standard power steering almost 10 years before they did.
hristov 17y ago
Don't agree. I don't know if you have actually driven any of the boats of the 60-80s but they handle very very badly even if they are rwd. I am talking about large old fashioned american cars, like ford crown victorias chevy caprices, etc. They have very bad steering response shake like crazy on the slightest turn tires squeel with slightest provocation etc. Those cars were built to drive in a straight line. I think any modern fwd sedan will do better. For example I used to drive a 90s crown victoria and then switched to a later model ford contour. The contour handled sooo much better even if it was fwd.
- Zak 17y ago
  I have driven some of those old boats, and they do handle very poorly, but not really worse than a lot of truck-based SUVs today. Looking outside of the US where large boats never caught on, the improvement in active safety appears even smaller. I came to the opposite conclusion regarding '90s Crown Victorias vs. Contours, however every Crown Victoria I've driven was a sport or police model with stiffer suspension than normal. Comparing to my grandmother's Buick Roadmaster, I'll agree with you. Again, I'm not saying modern cars aren't better. I'm saying the difference in active safety is not as big as the difference in passive safety, and I'm wondering why that is. Today's best handling cars are much better than the best cars of decades ago, but the average isn't nearly so improved.

by Zak 17y ago

tptacek 17y ago

You think ABS, traction control, and power steering and brakes haven't made things better than '59?

Zak 17y ago
I said "not nearly no dramatic", not that things aren't better now. A quick search suggests that the 1959 Bel Air had power brakes and that power steering was at least optional. I'm not sure power steering is standard on all low-end cars at this point. It wasn't a few years ago. ABS and traction control are effective in some situations for mitigating the effects of driver error, but often get in the way of the corrections a skill driver is attempting to make. Additionally, they don't actually create any more traction, so they don't actually raise the limits of what the car can handle. Sure, the average car is better off with them, but getting the weight balance, suspension tuning and brake balance right matters more. A limited-slip differential is another big improvement that's been well-known for a long time, but is still rare on popular cars.
- tptacek 17y ago
  My '94 Nissan Sentra had standard power steering. I'd be surprised to hear about a popular car made within the last 10 years that didn't have both ABS and power steering standard.
  - Zak 17y ago
    I distinctly recall driving a late '90s Saturn that didn't have power steering. According to the owner, who bought it new, it came that way and wasn't broken. As far as I can tell, power steering and brakes were relatively common 50 years ago though not as ubiquitous as they are now.
    - tptacek 17y ago
      Saturns must really suck if Nissan's entry-level car had standard power steering almost 10 years before they did.

hristov 17y ago

Don't agree. I don't know if you have actually driven any of the boats of the 60-80s but they handle very very badly even if they are rwd. I am talking about large old fashioned american cars, like ford crown victorias chevy caprices, etc. They have very bad steering response shake like crazy on the slightest turn tires squeel with slightest provocation etc. Those cars were built to drive in a straight line. I think any modern fwd sedan will do better. For example I used to drive a 90s crown victoria and then switched to a later model ford contour. The contour handled sooo much better even if it was fwd.

Zak 17y ago
I have driven some of those old boats, and they do handle very poorly, but not really worse than a lot of truck-based SUVs today. Looking outside of the US where large boats never caught on, the improvement in active safety appears even smaller. I came to the opposite conclusion regarding '90s Crown Victorias vs. Contours, however every Crown Victoria I've driven was a sport or police model with stiffer suspension than normal. Comparing to my grandmother's Buick Roadmaster, I'll agree with you. Again, I'm not saying modern cars aren't better. I'm saying the difference in active safety is not as big as the difference in passive safety, and I'm wondering why that is. Today's best handling cars are much better than the best cars of decades ago, but the average isn't nearly so improved.