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I feel like it's going pretty fast. Do Google or Facebook even officially support IE8 anymore? I think the quicker the issue is forced the better it is for ever

I feel like it's going pretty fast. Do Google or Facebook even officially support IE8 anymore? I think the quicker the issue is forced the better it is for everyone. IE9 is at the very least pretty acceptable to deal with. Edit: Looks like Google doesn't even support IE9 anymore. https://support.google.com/a/answer/33864?hl=en https://support.google.com/a/answer/33864?hl=en

sytelus 12y ago
First, you are talking about Google Apps which is not same other mainstream Google websites. Second, IE8 is still very popular browser with 20% market share. You don't want to lock out 1 in every 5 of your users. Third, a major point of using frameworks is not having to worry about browsers. This is why making frameworks are hard. Fourth, people who are stuck with IE8 or below are typically not by their choice.
- swartkrans 12y ago
  Gmail is part of Google Apps. That's pretty mainstream. Personally, where I work, anyone using any version of IE is screwed. We don't test for IE. I haven't checked to make things worked in IE as a regular part of development since 2009 and I have worked at a pretty big company that is often talked about on HN.
  - goatforce5 12y ago
    A few years back I was working on an app with some moderately fancy CSS and JS. We desperately wanted to drop IE6 support but after we pulled the revenue numbers per browser, we worked out our IE6 users could pay for a junior-mid range developer to just sit there and fix IE bugs all day.
    - swartkrans 12y ago
      > sit there and fix IE bugs all day I wonder what that's doing to the maintainability of your code base. I'm sure the overall cost is higher than just the pay of a single developer ruining your architecture. Supporting IE6 is more than just about fixing bugs.
    - kmkemp 12y ago
      And what happens when the amount of your users drops slightly or that hired dev is now worth more money? And what about the other costs on complexity in your codebase? I think the revenue needs to far eclipse one dev's salary to justify keeping IE6 support.
      - kibibu 12y ago
        Not to mention the mental health impact of spending all of your time fixing bugs for a 13 year old browser.
        oneeyedpigeon 12y ago
        Yeah, better get some good insurance for when that person goes postal ...
    - seanp2k2 12y ago
      Also, something to possibly consider: reach out to customers and ask them how much they need IE6 support. Unless it's healthcare or government, I'm not sure why anyone would use IE6 by choice. Would deprecating support for IE6 lose every single one of those customers?
      - goatforce5 12y ago
        A big chunk of the old IE users were military people deployed in the Middle East. I'm of the understanding that they have/had some sort of Internet Cafe setup on base, and I guess they were running older browsers.
- retrogradeMT 12y ago
  As much as I dislike IE8, I agree with you. Locking out 20% of users is going to stop me from using bootstrap 4 for awhile.
- tjsix 12y ago
  IE8 has less than 5% market share globally, how is it that you are arriving at your 20% number?
  - lomnakkus 12y ago
    I believe (but cannot prove) that the 20% is mostly due to China. Because it's such an incredibly populous nation, it can dominate international statistics like these. Unfortunately my home nation (though very small) is also on something like 20% WinXP (thus limited to IE8). It's ridiculous, but as long as clients are willing to pay us to support IE8, then that's what we'll do, much as we hate it. In my country it hopefully won't be long before it becomes prohobitively expensive to support IE8, so there's that... :)
    - arthurfm 12y ago
      > Unfortunately my home nation (though very small) is also on something like 20% WinXP (thus limited to IE8). Chrome and Firefox are still supported on XP. Surely they could switch browsers if forced? http://chrome.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/extending-chrome-support-for-xp-users.html http://chrome.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/extending-chrome-suppor... http://www.neowin.net/news/mozilla-to-support-firefox-on-windows-xp-after-microsoft-ends-support-for-the-os http://www.neowin.net/news/mozilla-to-support-firefox-on-win...
      - lomnakkus 12y ago
        Alas, no. People who are still on WinXP tend to not be the install-"custom"-software type. :(
        paublyrne 12y ago
        How long should the mountain wait for Muhammad, though? In the UK, analogue terrestrial television was eventually turned off, and replaced by digital, following a lengthy publicity campaign. I would guess there are very few people staring at blank TV screens and wondering what to do now. My point is, you need to give people a push sometimes.
- negativeview 12y ago
  Does that 20% come from your own stats or a third party? Most of the third parties look at worldwide market share. IE8 is disproportionately represented in third-world countries which you may or may not care about in your business. Best I can tell IE8 is somewhere around 6% in the US (these numbers are rough to find because most of the places that collect statistically significant numbers charge for the info). On my site (which centers around a first-world disposable-income-heavy hobby) IE8 is basically non-existent. Your mileage may vary.
  - JohnTHaller 12y ago
    On my largest site with a couple million visitors a month, IE makes up about 16% of site visitors. About 25% of those are using IE8. So, about 4% overall. I specifically ensure that the site still works in IE8 and up and was still quite functional on IE7 when I last looked. Anyone not ensuring their site works on IE is leaving money and customers on the table. Note that it doesn't have to look exactly the same, but it should still work and allow customers to learn, buy, sign in, subscribe, etc.
    - ulisesrmzroche 12y ago
      It depends on your market. I've worked on apps that have never even seen a visitor using internet explorer at all. This happens all the time in b2c software. So that analogy of leaving money on the table is not very realistic.
      - JohnTHaller 12y ago
        Of course, it varies. But there are far more users of desktop IE than desktop Safari in the US, for instance. So, once your product spreads beyond early adopters, iPhone users and Mac users (all of which are the minority of the market by large margins in each case) it's important that your site already works with the new visitors as word spreads.
        negativeview 12y ago
- joshuahornby 12y ago
  20%? What is your source?
- fireismyflag 12y ago
  IE8 is at 3.66% or a little over 1 in 30 users. Not 20% but still significant enough. http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php
- hiou 12y ago
  > 20% marketshare Anti-virus companies use an IE8 user agent string sometimes for finding dangerous sites. Other bots and crawlers still use the IE8 string, although it seems like many are switching to Chrome. I've never been able to find a resource about this, but is there any data available for the breakdown of bots/crawlers and their effect on browser usage statistics? One reason I ask is that using the web with IE8 is pretty miserable and a lot of sites are flat out broken. I know there is an aspect of corporate networks on it, but 20% just seems really high if you realize that 20% or more of the web is broken for IE8 users.
Siecje 12y ago
The latest Firefox has issues with Google sites http://www.otsukare.info/2014/10/28/google-webcompatibility-bugs-list http://www.otsukare.info/2014/10/28/google-webcompatibility-...

sytelus 12y ago

First, you are talking about Google Apps which is not same other mainstream Google websites. Second, IE8 is still very popular browser with 20% market share. You don't want to lock out 1 in every 5 of your users. Third, a major point of using frameworks is not having to worry about browsers. This is why making frameworks are hard. Fourth, people who are stuck with IE8 or below are typically not by their choice.

swartkrans 12y ago
Gmail is part of Google Apps. That's pretty mainstream. Personally, where I work, anyone using any version of IE is screwed. We don't test for IE. I haven't checked to make things worked in IE as a regular part of development since 2009 and I have worked at a pretty big company that is often talked about on HN.
- goatforce5 12y ago
  A few years back I was working on an app with some moderately fancy CSS and JS. We desperately wanted to drop IE6 support but after we pulled the revenue numbers per browser, we worked out our IE6 users could pay for a junior-mid range developer to just sit there and fix IE bugs all day.
  - swartkrans 12y ago
    > sit there and fix IE bugs all day I wonder what that's doing to the maintainability of your code base. I'm sure the overall cost is higher than just the pay of a single developer ruining your architecture. Supporting IE6 is more than just about fixing bugs.
  - kmkemp 12y ago
    And what happens when the amount of your users drops slightly or that hired dev is now worth more money? And what about the other costs on complexity in your codebase? I think the revenue needs to far eclipse one dev's salary to justify keeping IE6 support.
    - kibibu 12y ago
      Not to mention the mental health impact of spending all of your time fixing bugs for a 13 year old browser.
      - oneeyedpigeon 12y ago
        Yeah, better get some good insurance for when that person goes postal ...
  - seanp2k2 12y ago
    Also, something to possibly consider: reach out to customers and ask them how much they need IE6 support. Unless it's healthcare or government, I'm not sure why anyone would use IE6 by choice. Would deprecating support for IE6 lose every single one of those customers?
    - goatforce5 12y ago
      A big chunk of the old IE users were military people deployed in the Middle East. I'm of the understanding that they have/had some sort of Internet Cafe setup on base, and I guess they were running older browsers.
retrogradeMT 12y ago
As much as I dislike IE8, I agree with you. Locking out 20% of users is going to stop me from using bootstrap 4 for awhile.
tjsix 12y ago
IE8 has less than 5% market share globally, how is it that you are arriving at your 20% number?
- lomnakkus 12y ago
  I believe (but cannot prove) that the 20% is mostly due to China. Because it's such an incredibly populous nation, it can dominate international statistics like these. Unfortunately my home nation (though very small) is also on something like 20% WinXP (thus limited to IE8). It's ridiculous, but as long as clients are willing to pay us to support IE8, then that's what we'll do, much as we hate it. In my country it hopefully won't be long before it becomes prohobitively expensive to support IE8, so there's that... :)
  - arthurfm 12y ago
    > Unfortunately my home nation (though very small) is also on something like 20% WinXP (thus limited to IE8). Chrome and Firefox are still supported on XP. Surely they could switch browsers if forced? http://chrome.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/extending-chrome-support-for-xp-users.html http://chrome.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/extending-chrome-suppor... http://www.neowin.net/news/mozilla-to-support-firefox-on-windows-xp-after-microsoft-ends-support-for-the-os http://www.neowin.net/news/mozilla-to-support-firefox-on-win...
    - lomnakkus 12y ago
      Alas, no. People who are still on WinXP tend to not be the install-"custom"-software type. :(
      - paublyrne 12y ago
        How long should the mountain wait for Muhammad, though? In the UK, analogue terrestrial television was eventually turned off, and replaced by digital, following a lengthy publicity campaign. I would guess there are very few people staring at blank TV screens and wondering what to do now. My point is, you need to give people a push sometimes.
negativeview 12y ago
Does that 20% come from your own stats or a third party? Most of the third parties look at worldwide market share. IE8 is disproportionately represented in third-world countries which you may or may not care about in your business. Best I can tell IE8 is somewhere around 6% in the US (these numbers are rough to find because most of the places that collect statistically significant numbers charge for the info). On my site (which centers around a first-world disposable-income-heavy hobby) IE8 is basically non-existent. Your mileage may vary.
- JohnTHaller 12y ago
  On my largest site with a couple million visitors a month, IE makes up about 16% of site visitors. About 25% of those are using IE8. So, about 4% overall. I specifically ensure that the site still works in IE8 and up and was still quite functional on IE7 when I last looked. Anyone not ensuring their site works on IE is leaving money and customers on the table. Note that it doesn't have to look exactly the same, but it should still work and allow customers to learn, buy, sign in, subscribe, etc.
  - ulisesrmzroche 12y ago
    It depends on your market. I've worked on apps that have never even seen a visitor using internet explorer at all. This happens all the time in b2c software. So that analogy of leaving money on the table is not very realistic.
    - JohnTHaller 12y ago
      Of course, it varies. But there are far more users of desktop IE than desktop Safari in the US, for instance. So, once your product spreads beyond early adopters, iPhone users and Mac users (all of which are the minority of the market by large margins in each case) it's important that your site already works with the new visitors as word spreads.
      - negativeview 12y ago
joshuahornby 12y ago
20%? What is your source?
fireismyflag 12y ago
IE8 is at 3.66% or a little over 1 in 30 users. Not 20% but still significant enough. http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php
hiou 12y ago
> 20% marketshare Anti-virus companies use an IE8 user agent string sometimes for finding dangerous sites. Other bots and crawlers still use the IE8 string, although it seems like many are switching to Chrome. I've never been able to find a resource about this, but is there any data available for the breakdown of bots/crawlers and their effect on browser usage statistics? One reason I ask is that using the web with IE8 is pretty miserable and a lot of sites are flat out broken. I know there is an aspect of corporate networks on it, but 20% just seems really high if you realize that 20% or more of the web is broken for IE8 users.

Siecje 12y ago

The latest Firefox has issues with Google sites http://www.otsukare.info/2014/10/28/google-webcompatibility-bugs-list http://www.otsukare.info/2014/10/28/google-webcompatibility-...