4 ms·

>The levels of day-to-day corruption within the US judicial system Yes, and it goes beyond the incompetence, crimes and corruption. It's expensive. Amongst a

>The levels of day-to-day corruption within the US judicial system Yes, and it goes beyond the incompetence, crimes and corruption. It's expensive. Amongst all the municipal election hoopla in Toronto, I read a tidbit that last year the cost of policing increased by almost $400 per citizen. Now, I'll be honest, I have no idea what it really costs to run a police force, but it surprised me that it's increasing at such a rate. One would think that policing would become cheaper over time, via technology, an overall decrease in crime rates, and the nature of new crime that often involves people sitting in front of computers, both solving and committing the crime. That is unless you're buying all the new military toys to subjugate the citizenry.

snsr 12y ago
" That is unless you're buying all the new military toys to subjugate the citizenry." According to what I've read (relating to the US) unnecessary military equipment is generally supplied by the federal government or via funds acquired through "civil asset forfeiture" (theft).
- diggum 12y ago
  Which often becomes the new budget the following year.
- notatoad 12y ago
  There are significant costs to owning an MRAP, not just to acquiring one. Training, maintenance, operation, etc is all much more expensive when your police force has specialized military hardware.
  - wavefunction 12y ago
    I had to LOL at "training" but I agree that US police forces are spending more on maintenance and operation, especially since they pull these things out at the drop of a hat.
    - notatoad 12y ago
      inadequate training can cost just as much as (or more than) adequate training. If a police department is requisitioning big powerful toys, they are going to play with them. Going off-roading in the desert burns just as much fuel as doing a proper training seminar.
      - wavefunction 12y ago
        My point was the police don't really train or else we wouldn't have all these issues with their lack of professionalism and capabilities. They might "train" on how to clear a room but they don't train on appropriate escalation of force, for example.
sah88 12y ago
Population of Toronto is ~2.5 million. $400 dollars a person is 1 billion dollars which is a bit absurd as an increase. It does however happen to be roughly what the city spends in totality. '13-'14 increase was ~12 dollars per person.
anigbrowl 12y ago
If Toronto is anything like many American municipalities, a large chunk of that cost is pensions. Pension funds are often not fully paid up, and payments into the fund are often subject to rosy predictions about future earnings that lead to shortfalls if the fund manager underperforms. Additionally, public pensions often have a large 'defined benefit' overhang meaning that many beneficiaries are contractually entitled to fixed payouts. Finally, many public pensions are also based on final salary at retirement or in a short (1-3 year) period leading up to retirement, so it's common for in the US (and likely elsewhere) for police to work ridiculous amoutns of overtime in their last few years on the force in order to puff up their pension. Since the administration of a pension fund can involve payment obligations that reach back for many decades, the burdens of past financial or contractual mismanagement are often cumulative and ultimately fall upon the taxpayer. This is not as exciting or scarifying as police spending too much money on military toys, but it's a much more likely explanation for budgetary increases. One other possible problem which has recently been an issue in San Jose, California is that police academies sometimes spend a lot of money training new officers, only to see them leave immediately after graduation for other cities/counties that offer better pay or benefits. In the US many municipalities run their own police academies and there are no contractual obligations on graduates. San Jose has been strenuously trying to reform its pension system, so (unsurprisingly) new entrants to the force get a much worse deal than senior members whose benefits are locked in and have to be paid for by cuts to the benefits that can be earned by new members. So graduates train up in San Jose and then take off for some other city in the area that's offering a sweeter deal, possibly with the encouragement of of the police union that is not enthused about pension reform.

snsr 12y ago

" That is unless you're buying all the new military toys to subjugate the citizenry." According to what I've read (relating to the US) unnecessary military equipment is generally supplied by the federal government or via funds acquired through "civil asset forfeiture" (theft).

diggum 12y ago
Which often becomes the new budget the following year.
notatoad 12y ago
There are significant costs to owning an MRAP, not just to acquiring one. Training, maintenance, operation, etc is all much more expensive when your police force has specialized military hardware.
- wavefunction 12y ago
  I had to LOL at "training" but I agree that US police forces are spending more on maintenance and operation, especially since they pull these things out at the drop of a hat.
  - notatoad 12y ago
    inadequate training can cost just as much as (or more than) adequate training. If a police department is requisitioning big powerful toys, they are going to play with them. Going off-roading in the desert burns just as much fuel as doing a proper training seminar.
    - wavefunction 12y ago
      My point was the police don't really train or else we wouldn't have all these issues with their lack of professionalism and capabilities. They might "train" on how to clear a room but they don't train on appropriate escalation of force, for example.

sah88 12y ago

Population of Toronto is ~2.5 million. $400 dollars a person is 1 billion dollars which is a bit absurd as an increase. It does however happen to be roughly what the city spends in totality. '13-'14 increase was ~12 dollars per person.

anigbrowl 12y ago

If Toronto is anything like many American municipalities, a large chunk of that cost is pensions. Pension funds are often not fully paid up, and payments into the fund are often subject to rosy predictions about future earnings that lead to shortfalls if the fund manager underperforms. Additionally, public pensions often have a large 'defined benefit' overhang meaning that many beneficiaries are contractually entitled to fixed payouts. Finally, many public pensions are also based on final salary at retirement or in a short (1-3 year) period leading up to retirement, so it's common for in the US (and likely elsewhere) for police to work ridiculous amoutns of overtime in their last few years on the force in order to puff up their pension. Since the administration of a pension fund can involve payment obligations that reach back for many decades, the burdens of past financial or contractual mismanagement are often cumulative and ultimately fall upon the taxpayer. This is not as exciting or scarifying as police spending too much money on military toys, but it's a much more likely explanation for budgetary increases. One other possible problem which has recently been an issue in San Jose, California is that police academies sometimes spend a lot of money training new officers, only to see them leave immediately after graduation for other cities/counties that offer better pay or benefits. In the US many municipalities run their own police academies and there are no contractual obligations on graduates. San Jose has been strenuously trying to reform its pension system, so (unsurprisingly) new entrants to the force get a much worse deal than senior members whose benefits are locked in and have to be paid for by cuts to the benefits that can be earned by new members. So graduates train up in San Jose and then take off for some other city in the area that's offering a sweeter deal, possibly with the encouragement of of the police union that is not enthused about pension reform.