3 ms·

I suppose that would depend on if I am allowed to invite repairmen into my home under the pretense that I have a broken utility and then shoot them for trespass

I suppose that would depend on if I am allowed to invite repairmen into my home under the pretense that I have a broken utility and then shoot them for trespassing.

anigbrowl 12y ago
Given that it's not legal to shoot people for trespassing unless you have a reasonable expectation of harm, I suggest you don't test this theory. Trespass is a crime, but your response has to be proportionate to the harm you anticipate; so if someone is forcing their way into your house it's OK to shoot at them, but if they're just making a nuisance of themselves then you could march them off or call the police if you weren't able to do so. Last month, for example, a Michigan man was sentenced to 17 years for shooting a drunk woman who came to his porch and banged on his door after crashing her vehicle. While it was reasonable for him to be nervous, the jury felt that fell far short of a justification for shooting the unwanted visitor: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/04/us/theodore-wafer-sentenced-in-killing-of-renisha-mcbride.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/04/us/theodore-wafer-sentence...
- owenmarshall 12y ago
  > Given that it's not legal to shoot people for trespassing unless you have a reasonable expectation of harm That's actually quite dependent on state law. Take California's: "Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that force is used against another person, not a member of the family or household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred."
  - dllthomas 12y ago
    Though this seems to be a deceptive, not "forcible", entry at the most extreme, even if unlawful.
  - anigbrowl 12y ago
    True, and actually the criminal status of trespass varies as well - it's usually a misdemeanor but is sometimes a felony, so my original comment was a bit vague. But the bit you quote encapsulates what I was saying about force. People have got away with shooting others for merely approaching a dwelling (eg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Yoshihiro_Hattori http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Yoshihiro_Hattori) but attitudes about this seem to be shifting, so if you do feel impelled to shoot someone I would suggest calling the police immediately rather than relying on presumptive justifications.
    - owenmarshall 12y ago
      > but attitudes about this seem to be shifting Quite thankfully so. I don't disagree really with anything you said -- just wanted to note that state laws aren't consistent on this, and in many cases aren't fully clear at a glance.

I suppose that would depend on if I am allowed to invite repairmen into my home under the pretense that I have a broken utility and then shoot them for trespassing.

anigbrowl 12y ago

Given that it's not legal to shoot people for trespassing unless you have a reasonable expectation of harm, I suggest you don't test this theory. Trespass is a crime, but your response has to be proportionate to the harm you anticipate; so if someone is forcing their way into your house it's OK to shoot at them, but if they're just making a nuisance of themselves then you could march them off or call the police if you weren't able to do so. Last month, for example, a Michigan man was sentenced to 17 years for shooting a drunk woman who came to his porch and banged on his door after crashing her vehicle. While it was reasonable for him to be nervous, the jury felt that fell far short of a justification for shooting the unwanted visitor: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/04/us/theodore-wafer-sentenced-in-killing-of-renisha-mcbride.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/04/us/theodore-wafer-sentence...

owenmarshall 12y ago
> Given that it's not legal to shoot people for trespassing unless you have a reasonable expectation of harm That's actually quite dependent on state law. Take California's: "Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that force is used against another person, not a member of the family or household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred."
- dllthomas 12y ago
  Though this seems to be a deceptive, not "forcible", entry at the most extreme, even if unlawful.
- anigbrowl 12y ago
  True, and actually the criminal status of trespass varies as well - it's usually a misdemeanor but is sometimes a felony, so my original comment was a bit vague. But the bit you quote encapsulates what I was saying about force. People have got away with shooting others for merely approaching a dwelling (eg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Yoshihiro_Hattori http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Yoshihiro_Hattori) but attitudes about this seem to be shifting, so if you do feel impelled to shoot someone I would suggest calling the police immediately rather than relying on presumptive justifications.
  - owenmarshall 12y ago
    > but attitudes about this seem to be shifting Quite thankfully so. I don't disagree really with anything you said -- just wanted to note that state laws aren't consistent on this, and in many cases aren't fully clear at a glance.