5 ms·

If it is true the FBI tried to cover their asses, heads should roll. This kind of stuff is so despicable. If it is inconvenient to get a warrant, then that's wh

by gleenn 12y ago

If it is true the FBI tried to cover their asses, heads should roll. This kind of stuff is so despicable. If it is inconvenient to get a warrant, then that's where your job ends. My civil liberties should not be crumbling because of overzealous FBI agents going after some silly illegal gambling.

jobu 12y ago
When you look at it from the perspective of the officers, this plan was a win-win proposition. Even if it gets thrown out it court, they stopped the allegedly illegal operation. When there is no consequence to the officers themselves for their actions, then the ends will justify the means. (It's unjust, unethical, and possibly illegal, but it's the same reason people are still reading and discussing Machiavelli 500 years later.)
- john_b 12y ago
  It's only win-win if no heads roll, as the parent proposed.
  - ripb 12y ago
    The odds of heads rolling, going by previous non-attempts at holding these agencies responsible for their actions, seem to be low enough that they're quite happy to engage this behaviour without fear. And as for bringing about a change that would see future incidents causing them to be held accountable? I think the average person, and therefore the population, feels entirely powerless in that regard. I mean the US voted for a supposedly liberal, progressive President who even has it on his campaign website [1] that he would "Protect Whistleblowers", who has then gone on to prosecute more whistleblowers than all other President's combined [2]. So it's no wonder why people feel powerless, and it's no wonder why any change to these situations is certainly not coming in the visible future. 1. http://change.gov/agenda/ethics_agenda/ http://change.gov/agenda/ethics_agenda/ 2. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/sep/05/obama-campaign-brags-about-whistleblower-persecutions http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/sep/05/obama-c...
- higherpurpose 12y ago
  That's why it's such a shame the Obama administration especially (but probably the previous admins, too) fight to hard to protect the criminals in the government, instead of punishing them. That just sends a message that they can keep doing this sort of stuff, and nothing will happen to them. I'm not going to look for it now, but I remember a speech from Obama in relation to torture and he was basically saying that "he has the CIA's back," if the media or whoever tries to get those people responsible punished for it. It was from a few years ago, in this first term.
- akira2501 12y ago
  How is that a win? You've frustrated criminals for all of about 5 minutes. Further, you've alerted them to potential problem areas to avoid in the future. Congratulations, you've just made a smarter criminal. It also doesn't help that the FBI is a public institution and is required to respond to FOIA requests. The FBI does way more damage when it swings and misses than simply not doing anything at all.
jdimov 12y ago
And why should any government official care about your civil liberties? Because otherwise.... what?
- coldtea 12y ago
  Well, because otherwise you can: 1) not vote for them next time, 2) overthrow the government (happened quite often throughtout the 20th century in lots of E.U. and others countries. Governments can and do get thrown off mid-term by popular protest) 3) put politicians in jail (also happens) 4) eliminate their whole political party (e.g take it from 50%+ to less than 10% of the vote). 5) full blown revolution. Against powerful private interests on the other hand, you can't do as much. Especially if they work together.
  - dmix 12y ago
    The time where any of those points could have a meaningful impact on the political status quo has long passed. Even in extreme situations where governments are overthrown, foreign intelligence agencies have perfected their ability to totally manipulated the chaos to their benefit. Which is why it is no surprise the leaders who end up taking power are pretty much always puppets for much more powerful external states. Leaving the general populous in even less of a position of power than pre-revolution.
    - ripb 12y ago
      >Even in extreme situations where governments are overthrown, foreign intelligence agencies have perfected their ability to totally manipulated the chaos to their benefit. If not simply orchestrate the whole thing themselves, as the US and the UK did in Iran in 1953.
      - coldtea 12y ago
        Or helped happen in Ukraine twice in the past decade.
dllthomas 12y ago
"If it is inconvenient to get a warrant, then that's where your job ends." Or your job entails dealing with some inconvenience. Not by breaking the law or violating rights, though.

by gleenn 12y ago

jobu 12y ago

When you look at it from the perspective of the officers, this plan was a win-win proposition. Even if it gets thrown out it court, they stopped the allegedly illegal operation. When there is no consequence to the officers themselves for their actions, then the ends will justify the means. (It's unjust, unethical, and possibly illegal, but it's the same reason people are still reading and discussing Machiavelli 500 years later.)

john_b 12y ago
It's only win-win if no heads roll, as the parent proposed.
- ripb 12y ago
  The odds of heads rolling, going by previous non-attempts at holding these agencies responsible for their actions, seem to be low enough that they're quite happy to engage this behaviour without fear. And as for bringing about a change that would see future incidents causing them to be held accountable? I think the average person, and therefore the population, feels entirely powerless in that regard. I mean the US voted for a supposedly liberal, progressive President who even has it on his campaign website [1] that he would "Protect Whistleblowers", who has then gone on to prosecute more whistleblowers than all other President's combined [2]. So it's no wonder why people feel powerless, and it's no wonder why any change to these situations is certainly not coming in the visible future. 1. http://change.gov/agenda/ethics_agenda/ http://change.gov/agenda/ethics_agenda/ 2. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/sep/05/obama-campaign-brags-about-whistleblower-persecutions http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/sep/05/obama-c...
higherpurpose 12y ago
That's why it's such a shame the Obama administration especially (but probably the previous admins, too) fight to hard to protect the criminals in the government, instead of punishing them. That just sends a message that they can keep doing this sort of stuff, and nothing will happen to them. I'm not going to look for it now, but I remember a speech from Obama in relation to torture and he was basically saying that "he has the CIA's back," if the media or whoever tries to get those people responsible punished for it. It was from a few years ago, in this first term.
akira2501 12y ago
How is that a win? You've frustrated criminals for all of about 5 minutes. Further, you've alerted them to potential problem areas to avoid in the future. Congratulations, you've just made a smarter criminal. It also doesn't help that the FBI is a public institution and is required to respond to FOIA requests. The FBI does way more damage when it swings and misses than simply not doing anything at all.

jdimov 12y ago

And why should any government official care about your civil liberties? Because otherwise.... what?

coldtea 12y ago
Well, because otherwise you can: 1) not vote for them next time, 2) overthrow the government (happened quite often throughtout the 20th century in lots of E.U. and others countries. Governments can and do get thrown off mid-term by popular protest) 3) put politicians in jail (also happens) 4) eliminate their whole political party (e.g take it from 50%+ to less than 10% of the vote). 5) full blown revolution. Against powerful private interests on the other hand, you can't do as much. Especially if they work together.
- dmix 12y ago
  The time where any of those points could have a meaningful impact on the political status quo has long passed. Even in extreme situations where governments are overthrown, foreign intelligence agencies have perfected their ability to totally manipulated the chaos to their benefit. Which is why it is no surprise the leaders who end up taking power are pretty much always puppets for much more powerful external states. Leaving the general populous in even less of a position of power than pre-revolution.
  - ripb 12y ago
    >Even in extreme situations where governments are overthrown, foreign intelligence agencies have perfected their ability to totally manipulated the chaos to their benefit. If not simply orchestrate the whole thing themselves, as the US and the UK did in Iran in 1953.
    - coldtea 12y ago
      Or helped happen in Ukraine twice in the past decade.

dllthomas 12y ago

"If it is inconvenient to get a warrant, then that's where your job ends." Or your job entails dealing with some inconvenience. Not by breaking the law or violating rights, though.