5 ms·

Hi all! We cut a 1.0 release of the Mozilla Stumbler finally. Have at it. File the bugs. Complain about battery life. Help us make this thing not suck and

by crankycoder1975 12y ago

Hi all! We cut a 1.0 release of the Mozilla Stumbler finally. Have at it. File the bugs. Complain about battery life. Help us make this thing not suck and build out a proper open location service.

yzzxy 12y ago
Any plans to gamify/add user incentives for "Stumbling?"
- ThePinion 12y ago
  This would be an interesting addition. I realized that Google is showing off Ingress as a game, but most technical users know it's about data-mining for maps and other location based products. Mozilla is openly showing this off as something that is about gathering data.
  - cpeterso 12y ago
    We have leaderboards showing the top stumblers overall and for the last seven days. We have lots of gamification ideas inspired by Ingress or the Nintendo DS game "Treasure World", but nothing in the works yet. https://location.services.mozilla.com/leaders https://location.services.mozilla.com/leaders https://location.services.mozilla.com/leaders/weekly https://location.services.mozilla.com/leaders/weekly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_World https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_World
hackuser 12y ago
Congratulations; I hope this gives us a safe, effective, open location service. The privacy policy[1] could be clarified for less technical readers, and even for others. I infer that collected data is anonymous because you write, 1) We receive publicly observable data about WiFi access points and cell towers around you, your estimated latitude and longitude, and the date -- Not associated with anything else, that may be anonymous data -- though you could guess my home network or home location by the most common/strongest wifi signals. If you track data by submitter, you also would have a good idea of their travels. 2) we may receive certain temporary data such as your IP address. This data is deleted after being used as follows ... -- You seem to be implying that you do receive non-anonymous data, and delete it after innocuous uses. 3) You can send us data anonymously or under a nickname -- Which implies anonymity is possible. If what I infer is correct, why not restate it directly and unequivocally with something like the following: Unless you choose otherwise, the data you send will be anonymous and not associated with you in any way. We will not record who you are or what phone sent the data. We do receive some non-anonymous data, but we delete it within X hours/days after using it as follows ... And add more detail after that. [1] https://location.services.mozilla.com/privacy https://location.services.mozilla.com/privacy EDIT: Clarify a bit, and a correction to #1
- cpeterso 12y ago
  Good questions! The stumbler reports Wi-Fi and cell tower locations and an optional nickname. The location data is stored anonymously. The nickname and just the number of reported networks is stored separately, solely for display on the leaderboard [1] or other gamification in the future. The IP addresses are just a fact of life of web server logging. They are not stored in the location or leaderboard databases. [1] https://location.services.mozilla.com/leaders https://location.services.mozilla.com/leaders
  - hackuser 12y ago
    > Good questions! Thanks! My post's intention was to suggest that Mozilla revise the privacy policy to clarify it for everyone. What are your thoughts?
- justcommenting 12y ago
  "fact of life of web server logging" = screw you, we're not even going to consider deleting our logs even as we talk a good line about how much we respect your privacy edit after downvote: also, mozilla engineering PMs will intimate on hackernews that it won't internally correlate and potentially sell any of the location and other information it most obviously could correlate about people, even though it has already announced its intention to advertise.
  - sp332 12y ago
    "2) we may receive certain temporary data such as your IP address. This data is deleted after being used as follows". So yes, they do say they delete it. Also, Mozilla has a better track record with respecting user privacy than anyone else in this space. (And where is their intention to advertise?)
    - justcommenting 12y ago
      i agree that Mozilla has a better track record than most large tech companies in most areas, but that also sets a pretty low bar. i'm more of the opinion that if Mozilla really were as committed to user privacy as they claim to be, they might not respond so flippantly to questions about server logs. If it wanted to, Mozilla could even stop logging "certain temporary data such as your IP address." regarding Mozilla's intention to advertise: http://www.zdnet.com/mozilla-clarifies-defends-firefox-ad-position-7000026335/ http://www.zdnet.com/mozilla-clarifies-defends-firefox-ad-po...
cpeterso 12y ago
btw, the Mozilla location database is currently used to power geolocation on the well-publicized Firefox OS "$25 smartphone"! That device does not have GPS hardware so all geolocation requires rely on Mozilla's location service and GeoIP.
therealunreal 12y ago
I used to use it a lot a few months back "mapping" my town and I had noticed that it would go at full strength even when I was staying in the same place for hours. Would it be possible to gradually slow down the collections when it detects that the user isn't moving?
- zz1 12y ago
  There used to be a mode to geo-fence data collection, i.e. harvest only outside of a certain area, but I don't see it anymore.
  - crankycoder1975 12y ago
    geo-fencing was extremely rarely used. I think we had single digit numbers of people who enabled the feature and understood what it meant. We decided to cut out geofencing because it was confusing to most people and reducing the number of knobs and dials on a program is usually a good thing. We've got a bug filed to hook the accelerometers though: https://github.com/mozilla/MozStumbler/issues/1107 https://github.com/mozilla/MozStumbler/issues/1107
mike-cardwell 12y ago
Google provides an opt-out. They will ignore your AP if you append "_nomap" to the end of your SSID. Does Stumbler also support this? If not, why not? Ref: https://support.google.com/maps/answer/1725632?hl=en https://support.google.com/maps/answer/1725632?hl=en edit: Found the answer to my own question. Yes, they do support "nomap": https://github.com/mozilla/MozStumbler/issues/149 https://github.com/mozilla/MozStumbler/issues/149
- paulojreis 12y ago
  Is this really a thing? WTF? I feel very ashamed, as someone who works in IT, everytime this happens. I mean, people can opt-out, of course - but, in order to do that, they need to know what an SSID is, and how to change it. What about people who don't? Will we just assume that they don't care or that their opinion doesn't matter?
  - zz1 12y ago
    I guess you have a better suggestion, and am curious to hear about it.
    - walterbell 12y ago
      An option during router setup when SSID is named? An organized promotion of this approach, e.g. list of routers that make it simple, list of services that honor it. A cool name other than "Do Not Track".
      - zz1 12y ago
        That would require an action on the router-side, not on the mapping one. I think it could be a good option, but this doesn't apply for this case. Also, what if I agree to put my SSID into an open database but not in a locked one? Apple's and Google's location databases do not compare, for me, to Mozilla's one: I am more than glad to be in the latter, but not to be in the two formers.
    - justcommenting 12y ago
raesene4 12y ago
Cool stuff, always interesting to see a new entrant to the location services field, especially an open one. One question though. Will ordinary users be able to directly query the database via the API? i.e. if you want to geolocate a set of Access points and you have their MAC addresses will this service provide a direct supported API for retrieving their location? The documentation on the API page implies that this isn't really a supported application? Specifically "If you are developing a native application or library for a desktop operating system or Android, you can in principle use this service via its HTTPS API. Please refer to the development documentation for the details. On most other operating systems, you cannot access the required cell and WiFi network information required to call the service API. " and "At this stage the service is open to anyone, who wants to contribute back to the service and applications supporting the Mozilla mission. " seem a bit vague.
towelguy 12y ago
I see there is a leaderboard, so users have a nick, but can we contribute anonymously without signing up? Also, why do you need access to my photos?
- cpeterso 12y ago
  Yes, anonymous is the default mode. :) The nickname is optional and only used to record a leaderboard "points". The nickname is not tied to any reported Wi-Fi or location data. Mozilla Stumbler does not need to access your photos; it just needs to read/write to your sdcard (to cache map tile graphics and export KML data). "Access your photots" is Google's unfortunate explanation of accessing the sdcard.

Hi all! We cut a 1.0 release of the Mozilla Stumbler finally. Have at it. File the bugs. Complain about battery life. Help us make this thing not suck and build out a proper open location service.

yzzxy 12y ago

Any plans to gamify/add user incentives for "Stumbling?"

ThePinion 12y ago
This would be an interesting addition. I realized that Google is showing off Ingress as a game, but most technical users know it's about data-mining for maps and other location based products. Mozilla is openly showing this off as something that is about gathering data.
- cpeterso 12y ago
  We have leaderboards showing the top stumblers overall and for the last seven days. We have lots of gamification ideas inspired by Ingress or the Nintendo DS game "Treasure World", but nothing in the works yet. https://location.services.mozilla.com/leaders https://location.services.mozilla.com/leaders https://location.services.mozilla.com/leaders/weekly https://location.services.mozilla.com/leaders/weekly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_World https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_World

hackuser 12y ago

Congratulations; I hope this gives us a safe, effective, open location service. The privacy policy[1] could be clarified for less technical readers, and even for others. I infer that collected data is anonymous because you write, 1) We receive publicly observable data about WiFi access points and cell towers around you, your estimated latitude and longitude, and the date -- Not associated with anything else, that may be anonymous data -- though you could guess my home network or home location by the most common/strongest wifi signals. If you track data by submitter, you also would have a good idea of their travels. 2) we may receive certain temporary data such as your IP address. This data is deleted after being used as follows ... -- You seem to be implying that you do receive non-anonymous data, and delete it after innocuous uses. 3) You can send us data anonymously or under a nickname -- Which implies anonymity is possible. If what I infer is correct, why not restate it directly and unequivocally with something like the following: Unless you choose otherwise, the data you send will be anonymous and not associated with you in any way. We will not record who you are or what phone sent the data. We do receive some non-anonymous data, but we delete it within X hours/days after using it as follows ... And add more detail after that. [1] https://location.services.mozilla.com/privacy https://location.services.mozilla.com/privacy EDIT: Clarify a bit, and a correction to #1

cpeterso 12y ago
Good questions! The stumbler reports Wi-Fi and cell tower locations and an optional nickname. The location data is stored anonymously. The nickname and just the number of reported networks is stored separately, solely for display on the leaderboard [1] or other gamification in the future. The IP addresses are just a fact of life of web server logging. They are not stored in the location or leaderboard databases. [1] https://location.services.mozilla.com/leaders https://location.services.mozilla.com/leaders
- hackuser 12y ago
  > Good questions! Thanks! My post's intention was to suggest that Mozilla revise the privacy policy to clarify it for everyone. What are your thoughts?
justcommenting 12y ago
"fact of life of web server logging" = screw you, we're not even going to consider deleting our logs even as we talk a good line about how much we respect your privacy edit after downvote: also, mozilla engineering PMs will intimate on hackernews that it won't internally correlate and potentially sell any of the location and other information it most obviously could correlate about people, even though it has already announced its intention to advertise.
- sp332 12y ago
  "2) we may receive certain temporary data such as your IP address. This data is deleted after being used as follows". So yes, they do say they delete it. Also, Mozilla has a better track record with respecting user privacy than anyone else in this space. (And where is their intention to advertise?)
  - justcommenting 12y ago
    i agree that Mozilla has a better track record than most large tech companies in most areas, but that also sets a pretty low bar. i'm more of the opinion that if Mozilla really were as committed to user privacy as they claim to be, they might not respond so flippantly to questions about server logs. If it wanted to, Mozilla could even stop logging "certain temporary data such as your IP address." regarding Mozilla's intention to advertise: http://www.zdnet.com/mozilla-clarifies-defends-firefox-ad-position-7000026335/ http://www.zdnet.com/mozilla-clarifies-defends-firefox-ad-po...

cpeterso 12y ago

btw, the Mozilla location database is currently used to power geolocation on the well-publicized Firefox OS "$25 smartphone"! That device does not have GPS hardware so all geolocation requires rely on Mozilla's location service and GeoIP.

therealunreal 12y ago

I used to use it a lot a few months back "mapping" my town and I had noticed that it would go at full strength even when I was staying in the same place for hours. Would it be possible to gradually slow down the collections when it detects that the user isn't moving?

zz1 12y ago
There used to be a mode to geo-fence data collection, i.e. harvest only outside of a certain area, but I don't see it anymore.
- crankycoder1975 12y ago
  geo-fencing was extremely rarely used. I think we had single digit numbers of people who enabled the feature and understood what it meant. We decided to cut out geofencing because it was confusing to most people and reducing the number of knobs and dials on a program is usually a good thing. We've got a bug filed to hook the accelerometers though: https://github.com/mozilla/MozStumbler/issues/1107 https://github.com/mozilla/MozStumbler/issues/1107

mike-cardwell 12y ago

Google provides an opt-out. They will ignore your AP if you append "_nomap" to the end of your SSID. Does Stumbler also support this? If not, why not? Ref: https://support.google.com/maps/answer/1725632?hl=en https://support.google.com/maps/answer/1725632?hl=en edit: Found the answer to my own question. Yes, they do support "nomap": https://github.com/mozilla/MozStumbler/issues/149 https://github.com/mozilla/MozStumbler/issues/149

paulojreis 12y ago
Is this really a thing? WTF? I feel very ashamed, as someone who works in IT, everytime this happens. I mean, people can opt-out, of course - but, in order to do that, they need to know what an SSID is, and how to change it. What about people who don't? Will we just assume that they don't care or that their opinion doesn't matter?
- zz1 12y ago
  I guess you have a better suggestion, and am curious to hear about it.
  - walterbell 12y ago
    An option during router setup when SSID is named? An organized promotion of this approach, e.g. list of routers that make it simple, list of services that honor it. A cool name other than "Do Not Track".
    - zz1 12y ago
      That would require an action on the router-side, not on the mapping one. I think it could be a good option, but this doesn't apply for this case. Also, what if I agree to put my SSID into an open database but not in a locked one? Apple's and Google's location databases do not compare, for me, to Mozilla's one: I am more than glad to be in the latter, but not to be in the two formers.
  - justcommenting 12y ago

raesene4 12y ago

Cool stuff, always interesting to see a new entrant to the location services field, especially an open one. One question though. Will ordinary users be able to directly query the database via the API? i.e. if you want to geolocate a set of Access points and you have their MAC addresses will this service provide a direct supported API for retrieving their location? The documentation on the API page implies that this isn't really a supported application? Specifically "If you are developing a native application or library for a desktop operating system or Android, you can in principle use this service via its HTTPS API. Please refer to the development documentation for the details. On most other operating systems, you cannot access the required cell and WiFi network information required to call the service API. " and "At this stage the service is open to anyone, who wants to contribute back to the service and applications supporting the Mozilla mission. " seem a bit vague.

towelguy 12y ago

I see there is a leaderboard, so users have a nick, but can we contribute anonymously without signing up? Also, why do you need access to my photos?

cpeterso 12y ago
Yes, anonymous is the default mode. :) The nickname is optional and only used to record a leaderboard "points". The nickname is not tied to any reported Wi-Fi or location data. Mozilla Stumbler does not need to access your photos; it just needs to read/write to your sdcard (to cache map tile graphics and export KML data). "Access your photots" is Google's unfortunate explanation of accessing the sdcard.