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>Domestic cats have been domesticated for a long time. That sounds like lamarckism. Or do you suggest that cats were selectively bred for their social behaviou

>Domestic cats have been domesticated for a long time. That sounds like lamarckism. Or do you suggest that cats were selectively bred for their social behaviour? I find it dubious.

pessimizer 12y ago
>I find it dubious. You should check your detector.
Sharlin 12y ago
How do you think domestic cats came into existence? Prosocial behavior and tolerance of humans are traits that are equal parts nature and nurture in cats. Obviously current housecats are descended from those wild cats that were more accepting of human presence and had traits that made them accepted by humans as well. Still, individual cats must learn to interact with humans, and if they aren't habituated to human presence during the first couple of months of their lifes, they end up very different psychologically compared to if they are.
- puzzlingcaptcha 12y ago
  I questioned artificial selection (breeding), you replied with natural selection (increased reproductive success by adopting to living near humans). Briefly skimming some sources, we are both correct http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2702791/#__sec6title http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2702791/#__sec6t...
- warfangle 12y ago
  The domestication of dogs happened a lot longer ago, and probably a lot more organically (more like what you're thinking). The wolves would follow us around while we hunted (or, alternatively, we'd happen on one of their meals and chase them off), and the less human averse among them got more food. Cats happened about the same time agriculture did. They were attracted to the rodents, and less rodents meant we were happier - and they were happier with a reliable food source. At the beginning it might have helped to not be afraid of humans, but we probably didn't mess with them too much because they were helping us out with all the mice in our grains. So the difference in behavior is clear, not just from a social species standpoint, but from the domestication path: The European Wolf was domesticated to dogs as a hunting partner; the African Wildcat was domesticated to kill the rodents that devoured our foodstuffs. For the few few thousand years that was probably enough - they didn't have to make friends with us, just keep our food safe. Earliest cat domestication evidence is 9,500 years old; earliest dog domestication evidence is about 36,000 years old. They've still got quite a ways to go ;) Now if we could just start breeding them for social/intelligence instead of how weird and fluffy we can make them. Hard to morally advocate for breeding when the shelter/feral population is so damn high, though. (I feel the same way about dogs, though, tbh).
pavel_lishin 12y ago
Do you suggest that cats are immune to evolutionary pressure?
- puzzlingcaptcha 12y ago
  Do you suggest the presence of humans reduces the reproductive success of non-domesticated cats? Otherwise, how do you understand evolutionary pressure?
  - aetherson 12y ago
    Presence of humans increases the reproductive success of domesticated cats (because they get supplemental food and shelter and protection from predators), and decreases the success of non-domesticated cats (because humans are happy to kill antisocial feral cats).
    - puzzlingcaptcha 12y ago
      Do you honestly think that some agricultural community hundreds of years ago had nothing better to do than hunt down anti-social cats? It's speculation, and sources suggest the opposite is true, the cats were were simply tolerated: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2702791/#__sec6title http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2702791/#__sec6t... Increase of reproductive success is not an evolutionary pressure and is irrelevant in the context of the comment I was replying to.
      - GFK_of_xmaspast 12y ago
        Lots of teenage boys in agricultural communities today seem to have plenty of time to hunt down and kill cats.
        junto 12y ago
        To be fair it is only in the last 200 years that teenage boys were not working harder than we can even imagine. Take a look at the 'workhouses' in the UK at the start of the industrial revolution. Children worked and worked hard. There was no time for frivolity. People died young and it was hard to put food on the table. If anything cats, feral or not would be happily hunted for a little extra meat.

>Domestic cats have been domesticated for a long time. That sounds like lamarckism. Or do you suggest that cats were selectively bred for their social behaviour? I find it dubious.

pessimizer 12y ago

>I find it dubious. You should check your detector.

Sharlin 12y ago

How do you think domestic cats came into existence? Prosocial behavior and tolerance of humans are traits that are equal parts nature and nurture in cats. Obviously current housecats are descended from those wild cats that were more accepting of human presence and had traits that made them accepted by humans as well. Still, individual cats must learn to interact with humans, and if they aren't habituated to human presence during the first couple of months of their lifes, they end up very different psychologically compared to if they are.

puzzlingcaptcha 12y ago
I questioned artificial selection (breeding), you replied with natural selection (increased reproductive success by adopting to living near humans). Briefly skimming some sources, we are both correct http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2702791/#__sec6title http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2702791/#__sec6t...
warfangle 12y ago
The domestication of dogs happened a lot longer ago, and probably a lot more organically (more like what you're thinking). The wolves would follow us around while we hunted (or, alternatively, we'd happen on one of their meals and chase them off), and the less human averse among them got more food. Cats happened about the same time agriculture did. They were attracted to the rodents, and less rodents meant we were happier - and they were happier with a reliable food source. At the beginning it might have helped to not be afraid of humans, but we probably didn't mess with them too much because they were helping us out with all the mice in our grains. So the difference in behavior is clear, not just from a social species standpoint, but from the domestication path: The European Wolf was domesticated to dogs as a hunting partner; the African Wildcat was domesticated to kill the rodents that devoured our foodstuffs. For the few few thousand years that was probably enough - they didn't have to make friends with us, just keep our food safe. Earliest cat domestication evidence is 9,500 years old; earliest dog domestication evidence is about 36,000 years old. They've still got quite a ways to go ;) Now if we could just start breeding them for social/intelligence instead of how weird and fluffy we can make them. Hard to morally advocate for breeding when the shelter/feral population is so damn high, though. (I feel the same way about dogs, though, tbh).

pavel_lishin 12y ago

Do you suggest that cats are immune to evolutionary pressure?

puzzlingcaptcha 12y ago
Do you suggest the presence of humans reduces the reproductive success of non-domesticated cats? Otherwise, how do you understand evolutionary pressure?
- aetherson 12y ago
  Presence of humans increases the reproductive success of domesticated cats (because they get supplemental food and shelter and protection from predators), and decreases the success of non-domesticated cats (because humans are happy to kill antisocial feral cats).
  - puzzlingcaptcha 12y ago
    Do you honestly think that some agricultural community hundreds of years ago had nothing better to do than hunt down anti-social cats? It's speculation, and sources suggest the opposite is true, the cats were were simply tolerated: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2702791/#__sec6title http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2702791/#__sec6t... Increase of reproductive success is not an evolutionary pressure and is irrelevant in the context of the comment I was replying to.
    - GFK_of_xmaspast 12y ago
      Lots of teenage boys in agricultural communities today seem to have plenty of time to hunt down and kill cats.
      - junto 12y ago
        To be fair it is only in the last 200 years that teenage boys were not working harder than we can even imagine. Take a look at the 'workhouses' in the UK at the start of the industrial revolution. Children worked and worked hard. There was no time for frivolity. People died young and it was hard to put food on the table. If anything cats, feral or not would be happily hunted for a little extra meat.