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There are a number of problems with this article and the cited study. This, in particular, is highly questionable: We also find that one of the favorite polici

There are a number of problems with this article and the cited study. This, in particular, is highly questionable: We also find that one of the favorite policies advocated by conservatives to prevent voter fraud appears strikingly ineffective. Nearly three quarters of the non-citizens who indicated they were asked to provide photo identification at the polls claimed to have subsequently voted. A majority of non-citizens in Voter ID states self-report that they were required to show photo ID (which they could not have had) and subsequently voted successfully? I don't think Voter ID is very effective, but that statistic just doesn't make any sense. The study is based on self-reporting from only about 500 non-citizens, from a larger pool of about 30,000 voters, by the way. EDIT: My point is a bit unclear, but I am not suggesting that non-citizens cannot have any sort of photo ID, only that the photo ID would not correspond with an existing citizen's voter registration.

dustcoin 12y ago
A majority of non-citizens in Voter ID states self-report that they were required to show photo ID (which they could not have had) Non-citizens can acquire legitimate photo ID (a driver's license, for example).
- ewoodrich 12y ago
  Not a form of photo ID that can be used as a "Voter ID", however. The photo ID presented at the polling place would have to correspond with the existing voter registration. A non-citizen driver's license isn't proof of citizenship, and that is what is required by voter ID (with some variations based on the individual state, of course).
  - soneil 12y ago
    I'm curious, what ID can be assumed to be proof of citizenship? The only thing that springs to mind (I'll admit I'm not american, but have a little experience there) would be a birth certificate. Which generally doesn't fall under 'Photo ID'. (Genuine question; I realise such matters very wildly from state to state, and my experience is limited to Michigan - which didn't have this requirement, and I don't believe issues any ID other than drivers licence, or a 'state ID' - a voluntary substitute for the drivers licence where the licence isn't held)
    - mhurron 12y ago
      > what ID can be assumed to be proof of citizenship A passport, but a drivers license is acceptable for voting.
    - _kst_ 12y ago
      A birth certificate doesn't prove citizenship. Someone born in the US could emigrate and become a citizen of another country, then re-enter the US on a visit. Conversely, someone born elsewhere could be a naturalized citizen. A passport could prove citizenship (assuming the passport office checks properly before issuing it), but not everyone has a passport.
    - gohrt 12y ago
      ID is not proof of right to vote. The polling place has voter rolls, and being on that list is proof of right to vote. To get on that list requires registration.
  - mhurron 12y ago
    > A non-citizen driver's license isn't proof of citizenship, and that is what is required by voter ID [citation needed] Everything I've seen listed a drivers license as acceptable.
    - ewoodrich 12y ago
      I'm not referring to the photo ID presented at the polling place (which is not proof of citizenship, but of identity), but the normal voter registration process used by the state (which typically has other identity and residency requirements) and is then verified by photo ID. EDIT: The terminology with Voter ID can be imprecise and confusing, and I admit I used "voter id" where I meant the registration and voting procedure.
      - mhurron 12y ago
        It still doesn't appear that way. Looking at the requirements for Texas (since they've been screaming about it quite loudly) you are required to provide the following documents for voter registration: On the application, you must provide: Your TX driver’s license number. A personal identification number from the Texas Department of Public Safety (DPS). OR Your Social Security number. As I non-citizen, I still have a SSN, so that's not a problem. Further on they have this: If you DO NOT have one of these numbers, you will be required to show proof of identification at the polls. They then go on to list the appropriate documents - Texas driver license issued by the Texas Department of Public Safety (DPS) Texas Election Identification Certificate issued by DPS Texas personal identification card issued by DPS Texas concealed handgun license issued by DPS United States military identification card containing the person’s photograph United States citizenship certificate containing the person’s photograph United States passport Several of those do not prove citizenship.
        ewoodrich 12y ago
        I can't speak with certainty about Texas. But the normal process would be that if you had a non-citizen driver's license and lacked a SSN (or the SSN was for a non-citizen), it would not be acceptable for voter registration. (This could certainly be verified after the fact, as well, if the state wished). The list of "appropriate documents" are in-person (Voter ID) requirements, which would have required registering with the SSN or driver's license, as you mentioned.
akgerber 12y ago
Why can't a non-citizen have a photo ID? In most states, illegal immigrants can't get a drivers' license, but pretty much every other noncitizen can get one: http://www.state.nj.us/mvc/Licenses/LicensesNon-Citizens.htm http://www.state.nj.us/mvc/Licenses/LicensesNon-Citizens.htm
danpat 12y ago
I've just moved to the US, and I was curious as to what the process was. I'm not eligible to vote. I'm in Idaho where photo ID is required at the polling place. As far as I can see, all I would need to do would be show up on polling day, show my Idaho drivers license, fill out the registration form, and vote. The only proof of US citizenship required is that I would tick a box that says that I'm a US citizen. I can very easily see that being fraudulently exploited, or just plain misunderstood by new immigrants. I grew up in Australia, where voting is mandatory and has been for nearly a century. The system seems solid, and there is very rarely talk of vote fraud. The history of voting in the US is so full of change and diversity that I'm hardly surprised there are opportunities for exploits like this.
- ecdavis 12y ago
  > I can very easily see that being fraudulently exploited, or just plain misunderstood by new immigrants. Particularly when you're getting letters in the mail urging you to vote and telling you how. I've been getting a lot of those recently.
  - inimini 12y ago
    Same thing. Voting, jury-duty, etc. The road to the centralization of government data is long (especially since it goes against the interests of fraudsters).
- tsotha 12y ago
  The theory is if you use your ID even though you're allowed to cast a vote your vote could be invalidated later. Technically you could be jailed as well. The reason conservatives want voter ID is to prevent voting under other peoples' identity. Without ID there's no way you can even know that's happening. Which, we suspect, is why the Democrats are fighting so hard against it. It's less of an issue in Australia because you have far fewer illegal immigrants and the system is set up such that the people who do immigrate to Australia tend to be more highly educated. In the US prior to 2008 we had something on the order of a million illegal immigrants per year stretching back almost twenty years.
mhurron 12y ago
> required to show photo ID (which they could not have had) Non-citizen (and never will be) but I sure as hell have a drivers license, and like one held by any citizen it has a bad picture of me on it.
ecdavis 12y ago
I'm a non-citizen with a valid photo ID. Looking at it right now, there is no obvious way of determining my immigration status from it. IIRC all I needed to get my ID card was my SSN and some other acceptable proof of identity. Presumably the state has some means of matching my ID card to my immigration status, but it's not obvious just from looking at the card.

dustcoin 12y ago

A majority of non-citizens in Voter ID states self-report that they were required to show photo ID (which they could not have had) Non-citizens can acquire legitimate photo ID (a driver's license, for example).

ewoodrich 12y ago
Not a form of photo ID that can be used as a "Voter ID", however. The photo ID presented at the polling place would have to correspond with the existing voter registration. A non-citizen driver's license isn't proof of citizenship, and that is what is required by voter ID (with some variations based on the individual state, of course).
- soneil 12y ago
  I'm curious, what ID can be assumed to be proof of citizenship? The only thing that springs to mind (I'll admit I'm not american, but have a little experience there) would be a birth certificate. Which generally doesn't fall under 'Photo ID'. (Genuine question; I realise such matters very wildly from state to state, and my experience is limited to Michigan - which didn't have this requirement, and I don't believe issues any ID other than drivers licence, or a 'state ID' - a voluntary substitute for the drivers licence where the licence isn't held)
  - mhurron 12y ago
    > what ID can be assumed to be proof of citizenship A passport, but a drivers license is acceptable for voting.
  - _kst_ 12y ago
    A birth certificate doesn't prove citizenship. Someone born in the US could emigrate and become a citizen of another country, then re-enter the US on a visit. Conversely, someone born elsewhere could be a naturalized citizen. A passport could prove citizenship (assuming the passport office checks properly before issuing it), but not everyone has a passport.
  - gohrt 12y ago
    ID is not proof of right to vote. The polling place has voter rolls, and being on that list is proof of right to vote. To get on that list requires registration.
- mhurron 12y ago
  > A non-citizen driver's license isn't proof of citizenship, and that is what is required by voter ID [citation needed] Everything I've seen listed a drivers license as acceptable.
  - ewoodrich 12y ago
    I'm not referring to the photo ID presented at the polling place (which is not proof of citizenship, but of identity), but the normal voter registration process used by the state (which typically has other identity and residency requirements) and is then verified by photo ID. EDIT: The terminology with Voter ID can be imprecise and confusing, and I admit I used "voter id" where I meant the registration and voting procedure.
    - mhurron 12y ago
      It still doesn't appear that way. Looking at the requirements for Texas (since they've been screaming about it quite loudly) you are required to provide the following documents for voter registration: On the application, you must provide: Your TX driver’s license number. A personal identification number from the Texas Department of Public Safety (DPS). OR Your Social Security number. As I non-citizen, I still have a SSN, so that's not a problem. Further on they have this: If you DO NOT have one of these numbers, you will be required to show proof of identification at the polls. They then go on to list the appropriate documents - Texas driver license issued by the Texas Department of Public Safety (DPS) Texas Election Identification Certificate issued by DPS Texas personal identification card issued by DPS Texas concealed handgun license issued by DPS United States military identification card containing the person’s photograph United States citizenship certificate containing the person’s photograph United States passport Several of those do not prove citizenship.
      - ewoodrich 12y ago
        I can't speak with certainty about Texas. But the normal process would be that if you had a non-citizen driver's license and lacked a SSN (or the SSN was for a non-citizen), it would not be acceptable for voter registration. (This could certainly be verified after the fact, as well, if the state wished). The list of "appropriate documents" are in-person (Voter ID) requirements, which would have required registering with the SSN or driver's license, as you mentioned.

akgerber 12y ago

Why can't a non-citizen have a photo ID? In most states, illegal immigrants can't get a drivers' license, but pretty much every other noncitizen can get one: http://www.state.nj.us/mvc/Licenses/LicensesNon-Citizens.htm http://www.state.nj.us/mvc/Licenses/LicensesNon-Citizens.htm

danpat 12y ago

I've just moved to the US, and I was curious as to what the process was. I'm not eligible to vote. I'm in Idaho where photo ID is required at the polling place. As far as I can see, all I would need to do would be show up on polling day, show my Idaho drivers license, fill out the registration form, and vote. The only proof of US citizenship required is that I would tick a box that says that I'm a US citizen. I can very easily see that being fraudulently exploited, or just plain misunderstood by new immigrants. I grew up in Australia, where voting is mandatory and has been for nearly a century. The system seems solid, and there is very rarely talk of vote fraud. The history of voting in the US is so full of change and diversity that I'm hardly surprised there are opportunities for exploits like this.

ecdavis 12y ago
> I can very easily see that being fraudulently exploited, or just plain misunderstood by new immigrants. Particularly when you're getting letters in the mail urging you to vote and telling you how. I've been getting a lot of those recently.
- inimini 12y ago
  Same thing. Voting, jury-duty, etc. The road to the centralization of government data is long (especially since it goes against the interests of fraudsters).
tsotha 12y ago
The theory is if you use your ID even though you're allowed to cast a vote your vote could be invalidated later. Technically you could be jailed as well. The reason conservatives want voter ID is to prevent voting under other peoples' identity. Without ID there's no way you can even know that's happening. Which, we suspect, is why the Democrats are fighting so hard against it. It's less of an issue in Australia because you have far fewer illegal immigrants and the system is set up such that the people who do immigrate to Australia tend to be more highly educated. In the US prior to 2008 we had something on the order of a million illegal immigrants per year stretching back almost twenty years.

mhurron 12y ago

> required to show photo ID (which they could not have had) Non-citizen (and never will be) but I sure as hell have a drivers license, and like one held by any citizen it has a bad picture of me on it.

ecdavis 12y ago

I'm a non-citizen with a valid photo ID. Looking at it right now, there is no obvious way of determining my immigration status from it. IIRC all I needed to get my ID card was my SSN and some other acceptable proof of identity. Presumably the state has some means of matching my ID card to my immigration status, but it's not obvious just from looking at the card.