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So here's a question for the HN community. I'm running a small startup in an unsexy space. I definitely don't think it's a "startcrap." We have traction, reven

So here's a question for the HN community. I'm running a small startup in an unsexy space. I definitely don't think it's a "startcrap." We have traction, revenue, and it's a great intersection of hardware, software, and customer service. I need to build the team. My goal for the next few months is to do exactly that, and raise funding as well to pay the team. How do you find folks willing to work on something that isn't immediately fun or sexy? How do you convince them not to go work for Google/Facebook/Apple/Twitter, or some "fun" startup? I have some ideas about how to do this, but I'm interested in hearing the opinions of others.

dmix 12y ago
Eh, there's plenty of boring people who will work on boring things. But you can also to make working for your company exceptional in other ways, such as a great work environment (flexible, not 9 to 5), perks, or high salaries. Or recruit a foreign programmer to come live in your (presumably) western country, where they will be happy to live in a new exciting place.
- HorizonXP 12y ago
  This isn't the right visa, but I'm sure there's something similar I can take advantage of to entice foreign workers: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/business/start-up/index.asp http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/business/start-up/ind... Good points on the perks/benefits/environment. Definitely on my list of things to point out to candidates.
ForHackernews 12y ago
Don't bullshit us. Don't go on and on about "changing the world" when you're obviously not. Be up-front: "We sell widgets. They're not exciting, but they're pretty solid widgets, and we're always trying to make our customers happy and look for smart ways to get better at widget-selling." Offer ownership: Both in the sense of literal equity, and in the sense of autonomy and control over technical decisions and (where appropriate) product direction. If you want to hire people with expertise, you have to respect them to use their judgement. Offer work-life balance: Not everyone wants to spent 60 hours a week at work. Maybe Google offers free dinners at the office, but you offer the chance to leave the office and have dinner with their significant other.
- HorizonXP 12y ago
  Heh, it could be world-changing, but yeah, that's somewhat BS at this point. I like your points about ownership, and how you distinguish the different forms of it. Both are definitely important.
tomp 12y ago
State the "perks" up front (salary, equity) - so that people who are not willing to work at that price can avoid wasting their and your time. If looking for programmers: write a hard, challenging (but not unnecessarily complicated) coding test - you don't want to waste their time, but to excite them (and, at the same time, filter them). Like Matasano does.
- HorizonXP 12y ago
  I like the coding challenge idea. I have a few "real-world" problems that I could put together that could be interesting to people. The only worry I have is that I don't want people to feel like they're coding for "free."
  - vinceguidry 12y ago
    You can't please everyone. Some people will look at a sufficiently interesting "Code Kata" type problem as a fun challenge and others will turn up their noses. Some of the former won't be a good fit, and some of the latter will be perfectly good engineers to work with. Your signaling will never be perfect. Just keep filling and vetting the funnel regardless. It's just not worth trying to please everyone all the time.
  - bricestacey 12y ago
    For another opinion, I would never do a "coding challenge" for any company unless I really wanted to work there. A few years ago that list included: Github because they're awesome, and Facebook for the money. I doubt your company would qualify. Also, if you're targeting older employees like someone else mentioned, many won't have time for such tomfoolery.
  - tomp 12y ago
    Well, that's the point - they shouldn't be coding for "free" - it should not be a real-world problem, which is most likely solving a stupid bug in a framework you use, or a simple CRUD/statistics script. Instead, you want a puzzle that is a challenging as it's interesting - e.g. some Code Kata as another commenter suggested. Basically, it should be interesting enough that people who don't want to apply to your job would want to solve it, and after they solve it, you offer them to apply, which they would be likely to do, because you've proven yourself a cool guy/girl.
analog31 12y ago
Consider recruiting older engineers. Locate somewhere other than SV. In other words, plug into a more mainstream talent market. There are plenty of people willing to do "good" work that isn't sexy.
- npsimons 12y ago
  On top of this, consider allowing remote workers - it seems to be working well for Github and others, and honestly some people really like where they live.
  - HorizonXP 12y ago
    I'm trying my best to create a culture that fosters this. Right now, the team's small enough that I can do this.
    - calgaryeng 12y ago
      Contact info?
      - HorizonXP 12y ago
        My e-mail should be visible in my profile, right? xpatel at pulsecode [ca] If calgaryeng = living in Calgary, e-mail me, I might have work for you in the near future.
        bricestacey 12y ago
        your profile is empty.
        HorizonXP 12y ago
        Fixed.
- HorizonXP 12y ago
x0x0 12y ago
Recruit outside sfbay. A suggestion: if you go to a destination area like Tahoe, there are a small group of people that really really want to live there. Not every engineer does, but a few do. And that's all you need! Tahoe is also conveniently drivable from sf, in case you need to visit, and it is well under half the cost of living compared to the bay area. Offer private or semi-private offices. I'm way more productive. No ping pong tables and no pool tables. The loud cracking sounds made playing those games is distracting beyond belief. They're fine in a game room, but in the open they suck. Emphasize adult lives. Set an example by coming in to work, working hard while you're there, then leaving. I've worked at a startup that regularly had people in the office for 12+ hours with, my guess, perhaps 5 hours of actual work getting done.
Iftheshoefits 12y ago
It's a bit difficult without knowing exactly what you're doing. None of the advice you'll get in comments will mean much without elaboration on what you're doing and what your target labor market really is, in my opinion. The phrasing of your question implies something about your target labor market (younger, Bay Area startup single person with limited or no other obligations), but it's not explicit, so not useful to anybody who might consider giving advice, I think.
- HorizonXP 12y ago
  Fair enough. We've built a real-time API for monitoring building systems in commercial high-rise "smart" properties. These systems are all IP-connected, and we aggregate the data and controls into a single API. We've built a web-based dashboard for property managers to use on a daily basis to keep tabs on the building. It lets them see how the HVAC, building automation, security, lighting, even the network itself, is operating, so they can see issues as they arise. We're deployed in 1 building in the downtown Toronto core, with 2 more being added at the year's end, and 5 more next year. The API provides us a lot of capabilities, and one area we're going to leverage that is building tools and services for the property manager to make their job easier, allowing them to focus on providing better service to their tenants. We aim to actually make the building "smart" by allowing the property managers to offload many aspects of management to us. In essence, we aim to be the YourMechanic of smart buildings. We've signed up our current customer for this. This space is dominated by big players like Honeywell, Siemens, Johnson Controls, etc. However, they focus on delivering large equipment and installs to properties. While they do make an appreciable amount of revenue from services, software isn't typically a large part of this equation. Our aim is to utilize our software expertise to provide better service in areas not touched by their systems (i.e. they focus on HVAC, whereas we can do it all). Suffice it to say, there are plenty of "seasoned" engineers in this space. Enticing them to work for our company instead of their current ones is something I'm struggling with. Many of the other commenters have provided great pointers, some of which I plan to incorporate. But before I can attempt to recruit these people, I need to get to them first. How?
  - greenyoda 12y ago

dmix 12y ago

Eh, there's plenty of boring people who will work on boring things. But you can also to make working for your company exceptional in other ways, such as a great work environment (flexible, not 9 to 5), perks, or high salaries. Or recruit a foreign programmer to come live in your (presumably) western country, where they will be happy to live in a new exciting place.

HorizonXP 12y ago
This isn't the right visa, but I'm sure there's something similar I can take advantage of to entice foreign workers: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/business/start-up/index.asp http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/business/start-up/ind... Good points on the perks/benefits/environment. Definitely on my list of things to point out to candidates.

ForHackernews 12y ago

Don't bullshit us. Don't go on and on about "changing the world" when you're obviously not. Be up-front: "We sell widgets. They're not exciting, but they're pretty solid widgets, and we're always trying to make our customers happy and look for smart ways to get better at widget-selling." Offer ownership: Both in the sense of literal equity, and in the sense of autonomy and control over technical decisions and (where appropriate) product direction. If you want to hire people with expertise, you have to respect them to use their judgement. Offer work-life balance: Not everyone wants to spent 60 hours a week at work. Maybe Google offers free dinners at the office, but you offer the chance to leave the office and have dinner with their significant other.

HorizonXP 12y ago
Heh, it could be world-changing, but yeah, that's somewhat BS at this point. I like your points about ownership, and how you distinguish the different forms of it. Both are definitely important.

tomp 12y ago

State the "perks" up front (salary, equity) - so that people who are not willing to work at that price can avoid wasting their and your time. If looking for programmers: write a hard, challenging (but not unnecessarily complicated) coding test - you don't want to waste their time, but to excite them (and, at the same time, filter them). Like Matasano does.

HorizonXP 12y ago
I like the coding challenge idea. I have a few "real-world" problems that I could put together that could be interesting to people. The only worry I have is that I don't want people to feel like they're coding for "free."
- vinceguidry 12y ago
  You can't please everyone. Some people will look at a sufficiently interesting "Code Kata" type problem as a fun challenge and others will turn up their noses. Some of the former won't be a good fit, and some of the latter will be perfectly good engineers to work with. Your signaling will never be perfect. Just keep filling and vetting the funnel regardless. It's just not worth trying to please everyone all the time.
- bricestacey 12y ago
  For another opinion, I would never do a "coding challenge" for any company unless I really wanted to work there. A few years ago that list included: Github because they're awesome, and Facebook for the money. I doubt your company would qualify. Also, if you're targeting older employees like someone else mentioned, many won't have time for such tomfoolery.
- tomp 12y ago
  Well, that's the point - they shouldn't be coding for "free" - it should not be a real-world problem, which is most likely solving a stupid bug in a framework you use, or a simple CRUD/statistics script. Instead, you want a puzzle that is a challenging as it's interesting - e.g. some Code Kata as another commenter suggested. Basically, it should be interesting enough that people who don't want to apply to your job would want to solve it, and after they solve it, you offer them to apply, which they would be likely to do, because you've proven yourself a cool guy/girl.

analog31 12y ago

Consider recruiting older engineers. Locate somewhere other than SV. In other words, plug into a more mainstream talent market. There are plenty of people willing to do "good" work that isn't sexy.

npsimons 12y ago
On top of this, consider allowing remote workers - it seems to be working well for Github and others, and honestly some people really like where they live.
- HorizonXP 12y ago
  I'm trying my best to create a culture that fosters this. Right now, the team's small enough that I can do this.
  - calgaryeng 12y ago
    Contact info?
    - HorizonXP 12y ago
      My e-mail should be visible in my profile, right? xpatel at pulsecode [ca] If calgaryeng = living in Calgary, e-mail me, I might have work for you in the near future.
      - bricestacey 12y ago
        your profile is empty.
        HorizonXP 12y ago
        Fixed.
HorizonXP 12y ago

x0x0 12y ago

Recruit outside sfbay. A suggestion: if you go to a destination area like Tahoe, there are a small group of people that really really want to live there. Not every engineer does, but a few do. And that's all you need! Tahoe is also conveniently drivable from sf, in case you need to visit, and it is well under half the cost of living compared to the bay area. Offer private or semi-private offices. I'm way more productive. No ping pong tables and no pool tables. The loud cracking sounds made playing those games is distracting beyond belief. They're fine in a game room, but in the open they suck. Emphasize adult lives. Set an example by coming in to work, working hard while you're there, then leaving. I've worked at a startup that regularly had people in the office for 12+ hours with, my guess, perhaps 5 hours of actual work getting done.

Iftheshoefits 12y ago

It's a bit difficult without knowing exactly what you're doing. None of the advice you'll get in comments will mean much without elaboration on what you're doing and what your target labor market really is, in my opinion. The phrasing of your question implies something about your target labor market (younger, Bay Area startup single person with limited or no other obligations), but it's not explicit, so not useful to anybody who might consider giving advice, I think.

HorizonXP 12y ago
Fair enough. We've built a real-time API for monitoring building systems in commercial high-rise "smart" properties. These systems are all IP-connected, and we aggregate the data and controls into a single API. We've built a web-based dashboard for property managers to use on a daily basis to keep tabs on the building. It lets them see how the HVAC, building automation, security, lighting, even the network itself, is operating, so they can see issues as they arise. We're deployed in 1 building in the downtown Toronto core, with 2 more being added at the year's end, and 5 more next year. The API provides us a lot of capabilities, and one area we're going to leverage that is building tools and services for the property manager to make their job easier, allowing them to focus on providing better service to their tenants. We aim to actually make the building "smart" by allowing the property managers to offload many aspects of management to us. In essence, we aim to be the YourMechanic of smart buildings. We've signed up our current customer for this. This space is dominated by big players like Honeywell, Siemens, Johnson Controls, etc. However, they focus on delivering large equipment and installs to properties. While they do make an appreciable amount of revenue from services, software isn't typically a large part of this equation. Our aim is to utilize our software expertise to provide better service in areas not touched by their systems (i.e. they focus on HVAC, whereas we can do it all). Suffice it to say, there are plenty of "seasoned" engineers in this space. Enticing them to work for our company instead of their current ones is something I'm struggling with. Many of the other commenters have provided great pointers, some of which I plan to incorporate. But before I can attempt to recruit these people, I need to get to them first. How?
- greenyoda 12y ago