4 ms·

Can you imagine the reaction if there was a technical conference for men only - and a women could only attend as the guest of a man? There are far too many gra

by smanek 17y ago

Can you imagine the reaction if there was a technical conference for men only - and a women could only attend as the guest of a man? There are far too many grants/scholarships/opportunities that are explicitly only open to women or minorities (I'm a minority and it still bothers me). A hypothesis of implicit discrimination against group A does not justify explicit discrimination against group B. This happens all the time in the tech (and Math/Science) community and it really bothers me. This workshop in particular is one that I would have liked to attend, but am being excluded from because of my gender. Frankly, I don't know any women who would be interested in attending a 2-day RoR workshop so I can't go as a 'guest' - and I don't think that is too unusual.

tptacek 17y ago
I had a big long pompous comment here and it's just not as good as tumult's comment, which sums up the situation nicely: "Yeah, but I mean, if I took up a sudden interest in crocheting or something and the best way to get connected and start learning was to go to a crocheting convention that's 99% female, I'd feel a little awkward/discouraged." Bringing more women into the profession is a good thing. Having the woman in my life able to throw down in jQuery and even sometimes beat me on pentests is a good thing; you have no idea how much easier it is to build a company with your spouse. Let's find something else to get all huffy about.
- dschobel 17y ago
  Going to have to disagree with you here. I appreciate your pragmatism on the matter and do wish there were more women in technology BUT I think principles are worth "getting huffy about", and any sort of discrimination based on a genetic roll of the die is fundamentally wrong. Always and forever. In every case. It's stupid, it's Wrong (writ large). Let's just not do it.
  - tptacek 17y ago
    Presumably you have a problem with all the other "women-in-technology" events that occur across the industry? Because you're tilting at windmills, and not even particularly good ones.
    - dschobel 17y ago
      As I commented elsewhere in this story, I think a more productive angle would be to try to advertise to and welcome women rather than say "no guys, unless you come as a guest of a girl". There's a subtle but fundamental difference in those two messages.
mrshoe 17y ago
This reminds me of all the clever kids in school during Black History Month who would ask, "And when is White History Month?" The canned answer is, "The other 11 months of the year are White History Months." This answer has become trite at this point, but the argument at its core remains valid. Unfortunately, there are serious biases in our society. Correcting those biases is a worthy goal, and one we should pursue. In the mean time, we can use Black History Month and Ruby Workshops for Women to compensate for the biases and at least try to treat the symptoms.
- tptacek 17y ago
  You don't even have to get into a discussion about whether meaningful biases persist. It's hard to go to a dev workshop if you're extremely rusty because you've been taking care of kids for 2 years, or because you've been forced by circumstances to work part-time.
  - yummyfajitas 17y ago
    It's also hard to go to a dev workshop if you are rusty because you've spend 2 years studying Judo or 2 years biking around India. Or, for that matter, if you are a man who's been forced by circumstances to work part time. Spending 2 years engaging in non-development activities (by choice) is not limited to women.
    - tptacek 17y ago
      Raising a child: a non-development activity undertaken by choice. Biking around India: a non-development activity undertaken by choice. Therefore: We should all support paid family biking-around-India leave. The logic is unimpeachable!
      - yummyfajitas 17y ago
        You haven't actually offered an argument for supporting any kind of paid leave. But yes, I do believe that job benefits should be decoupled from having children. In any case, your mention of circumstances that could apply to people of any gender is a red herring. It's a workshop for women, not a workshop for people returning to the dev workforce after a 2 year hiatus.

by smanek 17y ago

tptacek 17y ago

I had a big long pompous comment here and it's just not as good as tumult's comment, which sums up the situation nicely: "Yeah, but I mean, if I took up a sudden interest in crocheting or something and the best way to get connected and start learning was to go to a crocheting convention that's 99% female, I'd feel a little awkward/discouraged." Bringing more women into the profession is a good thing. Having the woman in my life able to throw down in jQuery and even sometimes beat me on pentests is a good thing; you have no idea how much easier it is to build a company with your spouse. Let's find something else to get all huffy about.

dschobel 17y ago
Going to have to disagree with you here. I appreciate your pragmatism on the matter and do wish there were more women in technology BUT I think principles are worth "getting huffy about", and any sort of discrimination based on a genetic roll of the die is fundamentally wrong. Always and forever. In every case. It's stupid, it's Wrong (writ large). Let's just not do it.
- tptacek 17y ago
  Presumably you have a problem with all the other "women-in-technology" events that occur across the industry? Because you're tilting at windmills, and not even particularly good ones.
  - dschobel 17y ago
    As I commented elsewhere in this story, I think a more productive angle would be to try to advertise to and welcome women rather than say "no guys, unless you come as a guest of a girl". There's a subtle but fundamental difference in those two messages.

mrshoe 17y ago

This reminds me of all the clever kids in school during Black History Month who would ask, "And when is White History Month?" The canned answer is, "The other 11 months of the year are White History Months." This answer has become trite at this point, but the argument at its core remains valid. Unfortunately, there are serious biases in our society. Correcting those biases is a worthy goal, and one we should pursue. In the mean time, we can use Black History Month and Ruby Workshops for Women to compensate for the biases and at least try to treat the symptoms.

tptacek 17y ago
You don't even have to get into a discussion about whether meaningful biases persist. It's hard to go to a dev workshop if you're extremely rusty because you've been taking care of kids for 2 years, or because you've been forced by circumstances to work part-time.
- yummyfajitas 17y ago
  It's also hard to go to a dev workshop if you are rusty because you've spend 2 years studying Judo or 2 years biking around India. Or, for that matter, if you are a man who's been forced by circumstances to work part time. Spending 2 years engaging in non-development activities (by choice) is not limited to women.
  - tptacek 17y ago
    Raising a child: a non-development activity undertaken by choice. Biking around India: a non-development activity undertaken by choice. Therefore: We should all support paid family biking-around-India leave. The logic is unimpeachable!
    - yummyfajitas 17y ago
      You haven't actually offered an argument for supporting any kind of paid leave. But yes, I do believe that job benefits should be decoupled from having children. In any case, your mention of circumstances that could apply to people of any gender is a red herring. It's a workshop for women, not a workshop for people returning to the dev workforce after a 2 year hiatus.