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When (repeated) lying is tolerated in official positions and to official organs of the state, the whole nation itself is in grave danger. In this case, the whol

When (repeated) lying is tolerated in official positions and to official organs of the state, the whole nation itself is in grave danger. In this case, the whole world is in grave danger.

socceroos 12y ago
Trying to stop these people feels like an exercise in futility. Having voiced my opinion to my own representatives over and over again it becomes very disheartening not seeing any change for the better. If only people didn't discard morals at the first sight of power and money. Having said all that, I would encourage more people to talk to their representatives regarding these issues. It goes without saying that unless the people have a voice then their desires won't be heard.
- PythonicAlpha 12y ago
  > Having said all that, I would encourage more people to talk to their representatives regarding these issues. It goes without saying that unless the people have a voice then their desires won't be heard. I can't emphasis this enough. The trouble is, that far to many people stand by and are silent.
  - LunaSea 12y ago
    I think that the first part of socceroos's comment is more or less the answer to why people stand by silently.
    - ctchocula 12y ago
      This sounds like a coordination problem [1]. If only one person writes a letter to their representative, it doesn't do anything and that person is the only one who comes out at a loss of x hours of their time. No policies are changed and everyone is stuck in a bad situation. If a significant portion of the representative's constituency sends letters and the net political effect overcomes the amount of donations the representative gets from intelligence companies, maybe they will actually begin an initiative for policy change. Everyone is better off, but it's hard to convince a critical mass of people that think it will succeed. [1] http://raikoth.net/libertarian.html#coordination_problems http://raikoth.net/libertarian.html#coordination_problems
      - bmelton 12y ago
        Or possibly it's the bystander effect at play? This strikes me as somewhat less nefarious, and slightly more likely, given how unmotivated our nation tends to be to act on things more important than voting for American Idol winners. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect
- sopooneo 12y ago
  If we assume people, even good people, will generally discard morals at the first sight of money and power what can we do to make the system work anyway? Would some way of forcing transparency fix this underlying problem?
  - Omniusaspirer 12y ago
    It's not a question of transparency, it's a question of how you can most remove the human element from government. There ought to be quantifiable measures of success that you can use to say "this is a good government" and "this is a bad government". We've demonstrated pretty well throughout history that humans when aggregated into large groups are basically incompetent- especially when power and money are involved.
  - socceroos 12y ago
    Transparency is one of the keys - a very effective key. However, even transparency requires all actors to behave honourably in their transparency (not skewing the truth with white noise, not misdirecting the public to slip through unwanted policy, not manipulating or deleting data, etc). Also, there always comes a point in government where a certain level of information must remain secret (such as spy activity between states and within criminal organisations). If we were to force government transparency, I think we would see a marked rise in stonewalling due to 'national security' - the phrase itself is so general that anything could be under it's wing.
    - dllthomas 12y ago
      A big part of transparency where there are legitimate purposes for secrecy is protection of whistle-blowers.
      - socceroos 12y ago
        Good point. Funnily enough, we see these basic protections being eroded systematically.
  - rvn1045 12y ago
ripb 12y ago
I don't know whether I find it astonishing or a bleak reminder of reality that what has come from Snowden's leaks has mostly either fallen on deaf ears, or met harsh resistance in deeming him a "traitor" for what he has done. When you couple the most powerful military in the world with a system of absolute un-accountability - as we're seeing with officials lying to congress to no redress - there is certainly a massive issue not just for Americans but for the entire world. But then, one must ask, how much of it is acceptance undermined by a sheer feeling of dis-empowerment? It's easier to pretend everything is right, and that Snowden is a traitor, than trying to tackle the issues highlighted through the means we're given.
- PythonicAlpha 12y ago
  It bewilders me, that when somebody says the truth, he is called a traitor; but when somebody lies, he is called a patriot. Reminds me of 1984, where lies are called truth and truths are called lies.
  - ripb 12y ago
    It's utterly amazing what nationalism can cause people to do and say in the face of criticism. It's also very disappointing that, for quite some time, Snowden was labeled a "traitor". Even now, although the polls are showing that the majority of Americans surveyed state he is a whistleblower and not a traitor, that what he did was bad for, or an action against, America. If what Snowden has said is true regarding the level of access he had when working in the CIA, then it is absolute proof, if any more is ever needed, that his actions were taken in the interest of the public and not himself, and especially not against America. It's likewise very disappointing how little has come about as a result of what was shown by his leaks through the Guardian.
    - justcommenting 12y ago
      edward snowden did some heroic things, and one of the most important ways we can celebrate and extend the work that he has started is by working for justice. choosing to give up your agency to do something about these problems is one of the reasons they persist. people think we can't do anything about all of the bad things we see in the world, but we really can. courage is contagious.

When (repeated) lying is tolerated in official positions and to official organs of the state, the whole nation itself is in grave danger. In this case, the whole world is in grave danger.

socceroos 12y ago

Trying to stop these people feels like an exercise in futility. Having voiced my opinion to my own representatives over and over again it becomes very disheartening not seeing any change for the better. If only people didn't discard morals at the first sight of power and money. Having said all that, I would encourage more people to talk to their representatives regarding these issues. It goes without saying that unless the people have a voice then their desires won't be heard.

PythonicAlpha 12y ago
> Having said all that, I would encourage more people to talk to their representatives regarding these issues. It goes without saying that unless the people have a voice then their desires won't be heard. I can't emphasis this enough. The trouble is, that far to many people stand by and are silent.
- LunaSea 12y ago
  I think that the first part of socceroos's comment is more or less the answer to why people stand by silently.
  - ctchocula 12y ago
    This sounds like a coordination problem [1]. If only one person writes a letter to their representative, it doesn't do anything and that person is the only one who comes out at a loss of x hours of their time. No policies are changed and everyone is stuck in a bad situation. If a significant portion of the representative's constituency sends letters and the net political effect overcomes the amount of donations the representative gets from intelligence companies, maybe they will actually begin an initiative for policy change. Everyone is better off, but it's hard to convince a critical mass of people that think it will succeed. [1] http://raikoth.net/libertarian.html#coordination_problems http://raikoth.net/libertarian.html#coordination_problems
    - bmelton 12y ago
      Or possibly it's the bystander effect at play? This strikes me as somewhat less nefarious, and slightly more likely, given how unmotivated our nation tends to be to act on things more important than voting for American Idol winners. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect
sopooneo 12y ago
If we assume people, even good people, will generally discard morals at the first sight of money and power what can we do to make the system work anyway? Would some way of forcing transparency fix this underlying problem?
- Omniusaspirer 12y ago
  It's not a question of transparency, it's a question of how you can most remove the human element from government. There ought to be quantifiable measures of success that you can use to say "this is a good government" and "this is a bad government". We've demonstrated pretty well throughout history that humans when aggregated into large groups are basically incompetent- especially when power and money are involved.
- socceroos 12y ago
  Transparency is one of the keys - a very effective key. However, even transparency requires all actors to behave honourably in their transparency (not skewing the truth with white noise, not misdirecting the public to slip through unwanted policy, not manipulating or deleting data, etc). Also, there always comes a point in government where a certain level of information must remain secret (such as spy activity between states and within criminal organisations). If we were to force government transparency, I think we would see a marked rise in stonewalling due to 'national security' - the phrase itself is so general that anything could be under it's wing.
  - dllthomas 12y ago
    A big part of transparency where there are legitimate purposes for secrecy is protection of whistle-blowers.
    - socceroos 12y ago
      Good point. Funnily enough, we see these basic protections being eroded systematically.
- rvn1045 12y ago

ripb 12y ago

I don't know whether I find it astonishing or a bleak reminder of reality that what has come from Snowden's leaks has mostly either fallen on deaf ears, or met harsh resistance in deeming him a "traitor" for what he has done. When you couple the most powerful military in the world with a system of absolute un-accountability - as we're seeing with officials lying to congress to no redress - there is certainly a massive issue not just for Americans but for the entire world. But then, one must ask, how much of it is acceptance undermined by a sheer feeling of dis-empowerment? It's easier to pretend everything is right, and that Snowden is a traitor, than trying to tackle the issues highlighted through the means we're given.

PythonicAlpha 12y ago
It bewilders me, that when somebody says the truth, he is called a traitor; but when somebody lies, he is called a patriot. Reminds me of 1984, where lies are called truth and truths are called lies.
- ripb 12y ago
  It's utterly amazing what nationalism can cause people to do and say in the face of criticism. It's also very disappointing that, for quite some time, Snowden was labeled a "traitor". Even now, although the polls are showing that the majority of Americans surveyed state he is a whistleblower and not a traitor, that what he did was bad for, or an action against, America. If what Snowden has said is true regarding the level of access he had when working in the CIA, then it is absolute proof, if any more is ever needed, that his actions were taken in the interest of the public and not himself, and especially not against America. It's likewise very disappointing how little has come about as a result of what was shown by his leaks through the Guardian.
  - justcommenting 12y ago
    edward snowden did some heroic things, and one of the most important ways we can celebrate and extend the work that he has started is by working for justice. choosing to give up your agency to do something about these problems is one of the reasons they persist. people think we can't do anything about all of the bad things we see in the world, but we really can. courage is contagious.