5 ms·

Little by little the evidence is starting to show that people's problems aren't always a system, a government, an ideology, or another group of people, but rath

Little by little the evidence is starting to show that people's problems aren't always a system, a government, an ideology, or another group of people, but rather themselves. Hopefully one day "blame culture" can be ended altogether.

tokenadult 12y ago
Do you think we are done with the natural experiment of people moving into places with different systems or different cultures and finding out their own prospects, or the prospects of their children, change?
- nooron 12y ago
  Thank you for framing this in the way you did. There are so many ways to arrange human affairs. Some people thrive in certain environments and despair in others. Genetics plays a role in how we respond to different stimuli, but we're not finding out as many immutable facts of psychological character via genetics as your parent commenter thinks we do.
- _delirium 12y ago
  You don't even necessarily have to move to find that, just move in time (granted, past a certain number of years that becomes impractical, given lifespans). It's particularly striking here in Scandinavia, which has had relatively stable genetics over an extended period, yet extremely variable societies resulting, with different traits rewarded or discouraged at different times. It was (to generalize) once a warrior culture, then a hierarchical aristocratic culture, and is now a peaceful egalitarian culture, all with roughly the same genes involved.
Xcelerate 12y ago
This is an interesting point, and brings up a kind of weird philosophical issue I've often wondered about. Suppose that genetically, someone is predisposed to have very high motivation and discipline. Born into whatever environment, they have the aptitude to improving their life. Now imagine someone who, genetically, is predisposed to very low motivation and discipline. Born into a poor, or low-class environment, they are going to have a hard time moving up. However, someone with little natural discipline born into a high-class environment may still do okay in life (not great), by sheer virtue of the fact that they were born into fortunate circumstances. Similarly, what if we find that most criminal behaviors have a genetic component? What distinguishes mental illness from "evil"? A serial killer is clearly not right in the head; do we lock them up or treat it as an illness? Is the distinction simply based on the whims of the majority at a particular point in history? (Note the history of homosexuality.) A lot of times, people will complain about "lazy, uneducated people" and that if they'd just work harder, there wouldn't be any problems, but that's easy to say when you have an innate ability to work hard. (Ignoring, of course, all variables other than "hard work".) In another vein, it's easy to be a good, moral person if being a good, moral person is easy. That's a tautology, but I think it really highlights my point. Similarly, losing weight is easy for some people but much harder for others. Everyone projects their natural aptitudes and weaknesses on everyone else, and then makes political decisions on the basis of that projection. Anyway, I don't know what the correct answer is. But these thoughts bother me.
- sah88 12y ago
  "Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills." One of the oldest questions in philosophy to which I don't think there has every really been a good answer. Or at least I haven't read one.
  - programmarchy 12y ago
    Great quote by Schopenhauer. An analogy of the will that I like is that the will is like an animal in that the drive to live and reproduce is primal. But this animal -- let's call it a donkey -- can be tamed and then ridden upon, and with proper discipline, be made to go where the rider -- or intellect --wants it to go.
  - cottonseed 12y ago
    I use what I like to call "environmental discipline". (I think there is a technical term for this in psychology, but I can't find it off hand. Any psychologists know?) Suppose I need to study, but I don't really feel like it. I can will myself to go to a library or coffee shop with just the books I need to study and no distractions. Once I'm there, there is little choice but to work. However, had I stayed home, where there are myriad distractions, I might have gotten little or nothing done. Packing up and walking to another location is easy compared to sitting down tody study, but once I'm at the new location, sitting down and studying is now surprisingly easy.
  - CMCDragonkai 12y ago
    But you can change what you will. Are you saying you never change your opinion? Or you never change your wants or dreams?
- ChrisNorstrom 12y ago
  What if you could give criminals a pill that will erase their memories permanently. Then re-educate them and release them. Will they end up in a similar path as before? Was it their genetic induced impulses or their environment that caused their criminal situation? Or a combination of both? Should you heal them? If you do, will they end up living normal lives and have kids? If they have kids will they pass on their genetic impulses to their children and create a future problem?
nraynaud 12y ago
hum, saying someone is a procrastinator is still a blame culture, it's just blaming them. Moreover if it's really genetic, then you'll need a system around them, probably managed by a government to compensate for the deficient genetic trait. I see you where looking for confirmation for some kind of ideology, but I don't think I would blame short people for being short, but try to identify in which areas height is a issue and route around in various ways (climbing on stuff, abandoning some activities, or finding taller surrogates to do them).
JamesArgo 12y ago
Scott S. Alexander wrote a great blog post about this called Society Is Fixed, Biology Is Mutable: http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/10/society-is-fixed-biology-is-mutable/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/10/society-is-fixed-biolog...

tokenadult 12y ago

Do you think we are done with the natural experiment of people moving into places with different systems or different cultures and finding out their own prospects, or the prospects of their children, change?

nooron 12y ago
Thank you for framing this in the way you did. There are so many ways to arrange human affairs. Some people thrive in certain environments and despair in others. Genetics plays a role in how we respond to different stimuli, but we're not finding out as many immutable facts of psychological character via genetics as your parent commenter thinks we do.
_delirium 12y ago
You don't even necessarily have to move to find that, just move in time (granted, past a certain number of years that becomes impractical, given lifespans). It's particularly striking here in Scandinavia, which has had relatively stable genetics over an extended period, yet extremely variable societies resulting, with different traits rewarded or discouraged at different times. It was (to generalize) once a warrior culture, then a hierarchical aristocratic culture, and is now a peaceful egalitarian culture, all with roughly the same genes involved.

Xcelerate 12y ago

This is an interesting point, and brings up a kind of weird philosophical issue I've often wondered about. Suppose that genetically, someone is predisposed to have very high motivation and discipline. Born into whatever environment, they have the aptitude to improving their life. Now imagine someone who, genetically, is predisposed to very low motivation and discipline. Born into a poor, or low-class environment, they are going to have a hard time moving up. However, someone with little natural discipline born into a high-class environment may still do okay in life (not great), by sheer virtue of the fact that they were born into fortunate circumstances. Similarly, what if we find that most criminal behaviors have a genetic component? What distinguishes mental illness from "evil"? A serial killer is clearly not right in the head; do we lock them up or treat it as an illness? Is the distinction simply based on the whims of the majority at a particular point in history? (Note the history of homosexuality.) A lot of times, people will complain about "lazy, uneducated people" and that if they'd just work harder, there wouldn't be any problems, but that's easy to say when you have an innate ability to work hard. (Ignoring, of course, all variables other than "hard work".) In another vein, it's easy to be a good, moral person if being a good, moral person is easy. That's a tautology, but I think it really highlights my point. Similarly, losing weight is easy for some people but much harder for others. Everyone projects their natural aptitudes and weaknesses on everyone else, and then makes political decisions on the basis of that projection. Anyway, I don't know what the correct answer is. But these thoughts bother me.

sah88 12y ago
"Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills." One of the oldest questions in philosophy to which I don't think there has every really been a good answer. Or at least I haven't read one.
- programmarchy 12y ago
  Great quote by Schopenhauer. An analogy of the will that I like is that the will is like an animal in that the drive to live and reproduce is primal. But this animal -- let's call it a donkey -- can be tamed and then ridden upon, and with proper discipline, be made to go where the rider -- or intellect --wants it to go.
- cottonseed 12y ago
  I use what I like to call "environmental discipline". (I think there is a technical term for this in psychology, but I can't find it off hand. Any psychologists know?) Suppose I need to study, but I don't really feel like it. I can will myself to go to a library or coffee shop with just the books I need to study and no distractions. Once I'm there, there is little choice but to work. However, had I stayed home, where there are myriad distractions, I might have gotten little or nothing done. Packing up and walking to another location is easy compared to sitting down tody study, but once I'm at the new location, sitting down and studying is now surprisingly easy.
- CMCDragonkai 12y ago
  But you can change what you will. Are you saying you never change your opinion? Or you never change your wants or dreams?
ChrisNorstrom 12y ago
What if you could give criminals a pill that will erase their memories permanently. Then re-educate them and release them. Will they end up in a similar path as before? Was it their genetic induced impulses or their environment that caused their criminal situation? Or a combination of both? Should you heal them? If you do, will they end up living normal lives and have kids? If they have kids will they pass on their genetic impulses to their children and create a future problem?

nraynaud 12y ago

hum, saying someone is a procrastinator is still a blame culture, it's just blaming them. Moreover if it's really genetic, then you'll need a system around them, probably managed by a government to compensate for the deficient genetic trait. I see you where looking for confirmation for some kind of ideology, but I don't think I would blame short people for being short, but try to identify in which areas height is a issue and route around in various ways (climbing on stuff, abandoning some activities, or finding taller surrogates to do them).

JamesArgo 12y ago

Scott S. Alexander wrote a great blog post about this called Society Is Fixed, Biology Is Mutable: http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/10/society-is-fixed-biology-is-mutable/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/10/society-is-fixed-biolog...