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I think a lot of the time people miss the positive side of these stories. It's not just a story of impoverishment, its also story of adventure. If you were goi

I think a lot of the time people miss the positive side of these stories. It's not just a story of impoverishment, its also story of adventure. If you were going to backpack around the world, you're certainly going to be sleeping somewhere dumpy, eating poorly, dealing with crazy situations, etc. But thats okay, because you've accepted that you're trading off comfort for some unique experience. When I was a teenager, my friend would crash at my house and we'd just hack on our websites, play computer games, and occasionally step outside. For weeks at a time, that's all we'd do. And honestly it was some of the most fun and fulfillment I've ever had. You don't really get to do that as an adult, except in extreme cases like when you try to build a startup. Life isn't about necessarily optimizing for comfort or salary. Sometimes its more fulfilling to do what you want to do, where you want to do it, on your terms.

tatterdemalion 12y ago
I absolutely agree, but people need an honest appraisal of the situation. You should be making these sorts of decisions because this - in the moment - is the lifestyle you want, not because you believe it will make you a founder of the next WhatsApp.
- coralreef 12y ago
  I'm a bit more laissez-faire about the messaging behind these stories. Your assumption is that young, naive founders are being suckered and exploited by the perpetuation of these stories, because they don't need to live such extreme lifestyles to be successful. This is partially true. But we already know that we all can't be winners, and most ideas will be losers anyway. In our subgroup of grinders, I don't know that there is a significant statistical difference in the outcome vs the normal population of startups. But heuristically, we know that people willing to put themselves through more pain are objectively tougher, and harder to kill. Traits that probably are pretty good to have for a startup entrepreneur. Thus, I don't think its such a bad thing for entrepreneurs to do, even if its for the wrong reason. We don't need to protect anyone from themselves, startups are such an extreme experience that they'll quickly know whether or not they're happy with their decision.
  - tatterdemalion 12y ago
    Sure; I'm not saying no one should do this - and definitely not saying that people shouldn't be allowed to do this. What I think is a problem is the way that it is memetically emerging into a life narrative. To take an example that is probably not controversial - many people are going to college who really should not be. It isn't advancing their interests and often isn't even intangibly edifying for them. Why are they going to college? Because there's a cultural messaging telling them to go to college. Their ability to self-determine is being undermined by a larger sense of what they are supposed to do. So if there's a narrative that you should eat ramen, work 100 hour weeks, so on, to try to catch the Zuckerberg lottery - well, who wins in that game? A few of the people playing, and also the VCs.
    - to3m 12y ago
      Time to roll out my favourite Venkatesh Rao link, I think: http://www.forbes.com/sites/venkateshrao/2012/09/03/entrepreneurs-are-the-new-labor-part-i/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/venkateshrao/2012/09/03/entrepre... EDIT: I submitted it to the front page as well, for good measure: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8510967 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8510967

tatterdemalion 12y ago

I absolutely agree, but people need an honest appraisal of the situation. You should be making these sorts of decisions because this - in the moment - is the lifestyle you want, not because you believe it will make you a founder of the next WhatsApp.

coralreef 12y ago
I'm a bit more laissez-faire about the messaging behind these stories. Your assumption is that young, naive founders are being suckered and exploited by the perpetuation of these stories, because they don't need to live such extreme lifestyles to be successful. This is partially true. But we already know that we all can't be winners, and most ideas will be losers anyway. In our subgroup of grinders, I don't know that there is a significant statistical difference in the outcome vs the normal population of startups. But heuristically, we know that people willing to put themselves through more pain are objectively tougher, and harder to kill. Traits that probably are pretty good to have for a startup entrepreneur. Thus, I don't think its such a bad thing for entrepreneurs to do, even if its for the wrong reason. We don't need to protect anyone from themselves, startups are such an extreme experience that they'll quickly know whether or not they're happy with their decision.
- tatterdemalion 12y ago
  Sure; I'm not saying no one should do this - and definitely not saying that people shouldn't be allowed to do this. What I think is a problem is the way that it is memetically emerging into a life narrative. To take an example that is probably not controversial - many people are going to college who really should not be. It isn't advancing their interests and often isn't even intangibly edifying for them. Why are they going to college? Because there's a cultural messaging telling them to go to college. Their ability to self-determine is being undermined by a larger sense of what they are supposed to do. So if there's a narrative that you should eat ramen, work 100 hour weeks, so on, to try to catch the Zuckerberg lottery - well, who wins in that game? A few of the people playing, and also the VCs.
  - to3m 12y ago
    Time to roll out my favourite Venkatesh Rao link, I think: http://www.forbes.com/sites/venkateshrao/2012/09/03/entrepreneurs-are-the-new-labor-part-i/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/venkateshrao/2012/09/03/entrepre... EDIT: I submitted it to the front page as well, for good measure: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8510967 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8510967