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Is this even legal? I mean are ISPs, or telecom in general allowed to identify the requester without their permission? But I imagine it will not work on encrypt

Is this even legal? I mean are ISPs, or telecom in general allowed to identify the requester without their permission? But I imagine it will not work on encrypted connections. SSL FTW?!

declan 12y ago
I looked into these legal questions in some detail in an article I wrote for CNET (before leaving to found http://recent.io/ http://recent.io/ earlier this year). The short answer is that Verizon has more leeway than it would if it's a cable company, and it's possible that VZ's actions implicate the Wiretap Act, but exact implementation details matter: http://www.cnet.com/news/web-monitoring-for-ads-it-may-be-illegal/ http://www.cnet.com/news/web-monitoring-for-ads-it-may-be-il... Here's a related article I wrote about Verizon selling customers' geographical locations, app usage, and Web browsing activities: http://www.cnet.com/news/verizon-draws-fire-for-monitoring-app-usage-browsing-habits/ http://www.cnet.com/news/verizon-draws-fire-for-monitoring-a... My favorite quote from that story: "We're able to view just everything that they do," Bill Diggins, U.S. chief for the Verizon Wireless marketing initiative, told an industry conference earlier this year. "And that's really where data is going today. Data is the new oil." "We're able to identify what that customer likes not by filling out a form, but by analyzing what they do on a day-to-day basis..."
skywhopper 12y ago
It doesn't work on SSL yet. Although I won't be surprised when in the near future certain carrier-enhanced phones start coming with a Verizon-signed root CA installed that enables them to crack into your SSL stream and do the same thing. As for its legality, it shouldn't be, but it likely is. After all, it's well established that ISPs may mess around with your TCP and IP packets to enable NAT. So why not with the HTTP stream?
- x0x0 12y ago
  it's a good reason to buy iphones. Apple will let a poisoned ca cert on their phones about the same time hell freezes over. Android can probably only be trusted if it's a nexus phone.
  - x0x0 12y ago
    apparently suckers believe that lg, the company that makes tvs that upload shows watched or files on your network, or samsung, the company that needs your phone number, address book, gps location, and accounts in order to download jayz mp3s, wouldn't install a cert for verizon
  - corobo 12y ago
    I regularly install a self signed CA cert to reverse engineer the API behind various apps. Your tech-unsavvy person need only follow a couple of steps to install one too, especially if it's their network saying "This increases performance and speed or w/e guff we need to convince you to do this"
- scintill76 12y ago
  I suppose they can already sneak it into the SSL handshake packets, right? Put something in extended client hello[0] that whoever is interested can look at, and other TLS implementations should be ignoring for compatibility. It's maybe not as easy for ad networks to consume, but where there's money to be made, there's a way. I think this would work. Am I missing something? Has anyone checked if it's already being done? [0] https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4366#section-2.1 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4366#section-2.1
  - zrm 12y ago
    They don't even have to inject anything, it's surprising they're doing this at all. They could just use the TCP/IP source and destination addresses and ports to identify the connection. TLS wouldn't help that. VPN would though.
    - scintill76 12y ago
      Maybe, but it sounds more messy. Verizon would have to maintain a semi-public (to their "other" customers, that is, advertisers etc.), low-latency queryable database of {source, destination, customerID} tuples, and ads and/or pages might not finish loading until that query returns. If the ID is more static, the trackers can cache the identity information for awhile after the first time, and Verizon probably has less work to track and resolve IDs.

Is this even legal? I mean are ISPs, or telecom in general allowed to identify the requester without their permission? But I imagine it will not work on encrypted connections. SSL FTW?!

declan 12y ago

I looked into these legal questions in some detail in an article I wrote for CNET (before leaving to found http://recent.io/ http://recent.io/ earlier this year). The short answer is that Verizon has more leeway than it would if it's a cable company, and it's possible that VZ's actions implicate the Wiretap Act, but exact implementation details matter: http://www.cnet.com/news/web-monitoring-for-ads-it-may-be-illegal/ http://www.cnet.com/news/web-monitoring-for-ads-it-may-be-il... Here's a related article I wrote about Verizon selling customers' geographical locations, app usage, and Web browsing activities: http://www.cnet.com/news/verizon-draws-fire-for-monitoring-app-usage-browsing-habits/ http://www.cnet.com/news/verizon-draws-fire-for-monitoring-a... My favorite quote from that story: "We're able to view just everything that they do," Bill Diggins, U.S. chief for the Verizon Wireless marketing initiative, told an industry conference earlier this year. "And that's really where data is going today. Data is the new oil." "We're able to identify what that customer likes not by filling out a form, but by analyzing what they do on a day-to-day basis..."

skywhopper 12y ago

It doesn't work on SSL yet. Although I won't be surprised when in the near future certain carrier-enhanced phones start coming with a Verizon-signed root CA installed that enables them to crack into your SSL stream and do the same thing. As for its legality, it shouldn't be, but it likely is. After all, it's well established that ISPs may mess around with your TCP and IP packets to enable NAT. So why not with the HTTP stream?

x0x0 12y ago
it's a good reason to buy iphones. Apple will let a poisoned ca cert on their phones about the same time hell freezes over. Android can probably only be trusted if it's a nexus phone.
- x0x0 12y ago
  apparently suckers believe that lg, the company that makes tvs that upload shows watched or files on your network, or samsung, the company that needs your phone number, address book, gps location, and accounts in order to download jayz mp3s, wouldn't install a cert for verizon
- corobo 12y ago
  I regularly install a self signed CA cert to reverse engineer the API behind various apps. Your tech-unsavvy person need only follow a couple of steps to install one too, especially if it's their network saying "This increases performance and speed or w/e guff we need to convince you to do this"
scintill76 12y ago
I suppose they can already sneak it into the SSL handshake packets, right? Put something in extended client hello[0] that whoever is interested can look at, and other TLS implementations should be ignoring for compatibility. It's maybe not as easy for ad networks to consume, but where there's money to be made, there's a way. I think this would work. Am I missing something? Has anyone checked if it's already being done? [0] https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4366#section-2.1 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4366#section-2.1
- zrm 12y ago
  They don't even have to inject anything, it's surprising they're doing this at all. They could just use the TCP/IP source and destination addresses and ports to identify the connection. TLS wouldn't help that. VPN would though.
  - scintill76 12y ago
    Maybe, but it sounds more messy. Verizon would have to maintain a semi-public (to their "other" customers, that is, advertisers etc.), low-latency queryable database of {source, destination, customerID} tuples, and ads and/or pages might not finish loading until that query returns. If the ID is more static, the trackers can cache the identity information for awhile after the first time, and Verizon probably has less work to track and resolve IDs.