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At some level though, it HAS to be a simple matter of calories in vs. calories out. I will bet a large sum of money that if you literally give an obese person

At some level though, it HAS to be a simple matter of calories in vs. calories out. I will bet a large sum of money that if you literally give an obese person ONLY water and necessary vitamins for 3 months that they'll lose weight. You'll never find somebody who hasn't eaten anything for a month and is maintaining their weight. Sure it's an extreme case, meant only as a thought experiment, but it's obvious that 0 calories in and non-zero calories out absolutely MUST mean weight loss. What are the alternatives? Here's the thing... I'm willing to change my mind. Totally willing. Here's what it will take: Show me a person who is overweight and goes on a VERY strict, almost laboratory controlled diet for 6 months. Everything strictly regimented and monitored. If that person simply cannot lose weight then fine, Gary Taubes wins.

kyllo 12y ago
You're right, but that's not what it's about. Try putting yourself on a strictly regimented, hypo-caloric, laboratory controlled diet for more than a few days. It will consume all the willpower you have and then some. The point is that enough sleep and exercise, the right mix of gut bacteria, and a diet consisting of sufficient protein, fat, and fiber, with very little simple sugars and starches, will allow you to feel satiated on fewer calories, and lose weight without having to count calories, strictly regiment your diet, or suffer through hunger pangs.
- scottious 12y ago
  > Try putting yourself on a strictly regimented, hypo-caloric, laboratory controlled diet for more than a few days. It will consume all the willpower you have and then some. I don't disagree at all. I just think the conversation shouldn't be about "is it calories in vs. calories out?!" and more about "What can we do to make it easier for people to eat the right amount or run a calorie deficit?" Could we massively tax bad food and subsidize good food? Attempt to change culture? Figure out the underlying neurological issues involved in overeating and attempt to create a targeted treatment to ease these issues? I guess I feel like a lot of people try to obfuscate the issue by saying "It's more complicated than just calories-in vs. calories-out" almost as a way of absolving themselves from responsibility. Because, yes, running a calorie deficit for a long time is HARD. Like, I have a friend who's convinced "it's just a thyroid issue I have, calories-in vs. calories-out doesn't matter". However if there were a magic pill that caused them to only ever want to eat at most 1500 calories per day and start loving the taste of vegetables more than anything with no side effects I guarantee you that suddenly they'd be losing weight.
dragonwriter 12y ago
> Sure it's an extreme case, meant only as a thought experiment, but it's obvious that 0 calories in and non-zero calories out absolutely MUST mean weight loss. What are the alternatives? Conversion of body weight to a form that has less stored energy per unit of weight mass (e.g., fat to muscle). That's unlikely with zero calorie intake (since activity, which is difficult to maintain with a too-extreme deficit, and protein are both important to it), but it balances the calorie equation just as well as weight loss does. More generally on the point under discussion, adjusting caloric intake alone without changing calorie output is expected to produce weight loss if a bunch of other factors are held constant, but the way humans are constructed, its actually not at all simple to adjust calorie intake and not alter calorie output or any of the other relevant factors -- in fact, many of them the body will itself change as a result of a change in calorie input.

kyllo 12y ago

You're right, but that's not what it's about. Try putting yourself on a strictly regimented, hypo-caloric, laboratory controlled diet for more than a few days. It will consume all the willpower you have and then some. The point is that enough sleep and exercise, the right mix of gut bacteria, and a diet consisting of sufficient protein, fat, and fiber, with very little simple sugars and starches, will allow you to feel satiated on fewer calories, and lose weight without having to count calories, strictly regiment your diet, or suffer through hunger pangs.

scottious 12y ago
> Try putting yourself on a strictly regimented, hypo-caloric, laboratory controlled diet for more than a few days. It will consume all the willpower you have and then some. I don't disagree at all. I just think the conversation shouldn't be about "is it calories in vs. calories out?!" and more about "What can we do to make it easier for people to eat the right amount or run a calorie deficit?" Could we massively tax bad food and subsidize good food? Attempt to change culture? Figure out the underlying neurological issues involved in overeating and attempt to create a targeted treatment to ease these issues? I guess I feel like a lot of people try to obfuscate the issue by saying "It's more complicated than just calories-in vs. calories-out" almost as a way of absolving themselves from responsibility. Because, yes, running a calorie deficit for a long time is HARD. Like, I have a friend who's convinced "it's just a thyroid issue I have, calories-in vs. calories-out doesn't matter". However if there were a magic pill that caused them to only ever want to eat at most 1500 calories per day and start loving the taste of vegetables more than anything with no side effects I guarantee you that suddenly they'd be losing weight.

dragonwriter 12y ago

> Sure it's an extreme case, meant only as a thought experiment, but it's obvious that 0 calories in and non-zero calories out absolutely MUST mean weight loss. What are the alternatives? Conversion of body weight to a form that has less stored energy per unit of weight mass (e.g., fat to muscle). That's unlikely with zero calorie intake (since activity, which is difficult to maintain with a too-extreme deficit, and protein are both important to it), but it balances the calorie equation just as well as weight loss does. More generally on the point under discussion, adjusting caloric intake alone without changing calorie output is expected to produce weight loss if a bunch of other factors are held constant, but the way humans are constructed, its actually not at all simple to adjust calorie intake and not alter calorie output or any of the other relevant factors -- in fact, many of them the body will itself change as a result of a change in calorie input.