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>Some Small Advice: if you’re just beginning to program, I’d suggest starting with JavaScript/HTML/CSS because there is a plethora of help out there. What a te

by mapcars 12y ago

>Some Small Advice: if you’re just beginning to program, I’d suggest starting with JavaScript/HTML/CSS because there is a plethora of help out there. What a terrible advice.

sanxiyn 12y ago
Why is it a terrible advice?
- stonewhite 12y ago
  Because programming != web programming, and sure as hell HTML/CSS is not programming. About javascript(vanilla js), nobody even wants touch it anymore. Almost anybody who interacts with javascript code does it with a 5 foot stick(coffescript, clojurescript), and/or behind huge frameworks that protects you from its perils. Something that is more usable and understandable in its barebones state like python makes more sense for beginners.
  - sehr 12y ago
    I think you're severely overestimating the number of people who use a compile to language
    - stonewhite 12y ago
      I do agree it was a hyperbole.
  - BonsaiDen 12y ago
    Vanilla JS is perfectly fine and there are a ton of people out there who are using it every day on a highly professional level. There is a huge amount of tooling these days and specially the Node.js community and ecosystem are flourishing. Code coverage, static analysis, test frameworks for every use case imaginable, you name it. Coffeescript and its brethren are a "solution" for people who are not interested in JavaScript and don't care about performance / maintainability in the long term. The additional compile step and the resulting problems with not being able to know exactly what it ends up generating become a huge burden in the long run. If you're really good in JS, you know what we'll be JIT'ted and what not, just like a really good C++ developer knows what the compiler will eventually optimize away and what not. Seriously, building your cool, new library in <Insert Fancy New Compile to JS Language here> is like writing the latest addition to Boost in C89. Nobody wants to depend on it in the long run. From what I have seen, the people who are mainly using things like Coffeescript are coming from Ruby or Python and want their cool-aid back. If you don't want to learn a language, don't use it and if that means you won't be able to do stuff on the web, well I'm totally fine with that. I've seen enough code that looked like a J2EE developer just started coding C the other day.
    - stonewhite 12y ago
      While do agree with your stated facts, and I accept mine was a hyperbole, my point was more on the hidden pitfalls and uncommon language design of javascript. Learning a language with prototype-based inheritance would serve less for a beginner than a professional.
  - enraged_camel 12y ago
    >>Because programming != web programming That's your personal opinion, and frankly, it reeks of elitism.
    - dllthomas 12y ago
      Um, that bit alone should be uncontroversial. Two sets are only equal if they contain precisely the same members. "There is no programming except for web programming" reeks of more elitism (in that it is more restrictive) than "there is programming that is not web programming". "Web programming is not programming" is another matter, but that's not actually what was said.
      - enraged_camel 12y ago
        >>"Web programming is not programming" is another matter, but that's not actually what was said. Actually, it was. If you read the rest of the parent's comment, he completes that sentence with: "...and sure as hell HTML/CSS is not programming." So it's pretty clear from the way the sentence is written that the parent has clearly established some sort of hierarchy in his mind, and what he actually meant was, "web programming is not real programming."
        dllthomas 12y ago
        "Actually, it was." No, it wasn't. Read it more carefully. You may be right about the beliefs of the author, and I don't endorse the entirety of the comment, but "web programming is not programming" was not said anywhere there, and the principle of charity would suggest you should at least make sure that is what the author was trying to convey before lambasting them for it. "If you read the rest of the parent's comment" I did. Before I replied to you, even. 'he completes that sentence with: "...and sure as hell HTML/CSS is not programming."' HTML/CSS is not programming, it's markup. Markdown and LaTeX are also not programming. That doesn't mean there can't be plenty of programming that involves those. 'So it's pretty clear from the way the sentence is written that the parent has clearly established some sort of hierarchy in his mind, and what he actually meant was, "web programming is not real programming."' It's plausible, but again, principle of charity.
oevi 12y ago
Why? For beginners web technologies are perfect. you can have results like a first static page within the first day and from that point go on to eventually build complex web apps. and all that with the same tools and languages. you will not be a programmer at first, but you might become one.
- mawburn 12y ago
  I think it's a great entry point. HTML/CSS is a very low entry bar to be introduced on how to talk to a computer. Of course it's not "programming" and very little logic, but it can show people one very important thing: "See look, it's not so hard to talk to a computer. Those words on TV aren't all gibberish." It's not like it teaches bad practices like a number of other "entry level" languages do. I'm sure the majority of people in my generation (late 20's, early 30's) started with HTML/CSS when they were kids.
gamesbrainiac 12y ago
Absolutely. I always suggest python since it teaches kids to always indent and make code readable. It also has very good documentation and is a simple language. There is plenty of help out there for it as well. I initially tried js/html with the kids in my school, and although it was fun because they were making making visual things, it turned them away from the console. This is not a good thing since the console is where they have to do a lot of the work, and having an aversion to it is one of the worst things that can happen to you. I simply state this as my experience. Yours might be different.

by mapcars 12y ago

>Some Small Advice: if you’re just beginning to program, I’d suggest starting with JavaScript/HTML/CSS because there is a plethora of help out there. What a terrible advice.

sanxiyn 12y ago

Why is it a terrible advice?

stonewhite 12y ago
Because programming != web programming, and sure as hell HTML/CSS is not programming. About javascript(vanilla js), nobody even wants touch it anymore. Almost anybody who interacts with javascript code does it with a 5 foot stick(coffescript, clojurescript), and/or behind huge frameworks that protects you from its perils. Something that is more usable and understandable in its barebones state like python makes more sense for beginners.
- sehr 12y ago
  I think you're severely overestimating the number of people who use a compile to language
  - stonewhite 12y ago
    I do agree it was a hyperbole.
- BonsaiDen 12y ago
  Vanilla JS is perfectly fine and there are a ton of people out there who are using it every day on a highly professional level. There is a huge amount of tooling these days and specially the Node.js community and ecosystem are flourishing. Code coverage, static analysis, test frameworks for every use case imaginable, you name it. Coffeescript and its brethren are a "solution" for people who are not interested in JavaScript and don't care about performance / maintainability in the long term. The additional compile step and the resulting problems with not being able to know exactly what it ends up generating become a huge burden in the long run. If you're really good in JS, you know what we'll be JIT'ted and what not, just like a really good C++ developer knows what the compiler will eventually optimize away and what not. Seriously, building your cool, new library in <Insert Fancy New Compile to JS Language here> is like writing the latest addition to Boost in C89. Nobody wants to depend on it in the long run. From what I have seen, the people who are mainly using things like Coffeescript are coming from Ruby or Python and want their cool-aid back. If you don't want to learn a language, don't use it and if that means you won't be able to do stuff on the web, well I'm totally fine with that. I've seen enough code that looked like a J2EE developer just started coding C the other day.
  - stonewhite 12y ago
    While do agree with your stated facts, and I accept mine was a hyperbole, my point was more on the hidden pitfalls and uncommon language design of javascript. Learning a language with prototype-based inheritance would serve less for a beginner than a professional.
- enraged_camel 12y ago
  >>Because programming != web programming That's your personal opinion, and frankly, it reeks of elitism.
  - dllthomas 12y ago
    Um, that bit alone should be uncontroversial. Two sets are only equal if they contain precisely the same members. "There is no programming except for web programming" reeks of more elitism (in that it is more restrictive) than "there is programming that is not web programming". "Web programming is not programming" is another matter, but that's not actually what was said.
    - enraged_camel 12y ago
      >>"Web programming is not programming" is another matter, but that's not actually what was said. Actually, it was. If you read the rest of the parent's comment, he completes that sentence with: "...and sure as hell HTML/CSS is not programming." So it's pretty clear from the way the sentence is written that the parent has clearly established some sort of hierarchy in his mind, and what he actually meant was, "web programming is not real programming."
      - dllthomas 12y ago
        "Actually, it was." No, it wasn't. Read it more carefully. You may be right about the beliefs of the author, and I don't endorse the entirety of the comment, but "web programming is not programming" was not said anywhere there, and the principle of charity would suggest you should at least make sure that is what the author was trying to convey before lambasting them for it. "If you read the rest of the parent's comment" I did. Before I replied to you, even. 'he completes that sentence with: "...and sure as hell HTML/CSS is not programming."' HTML/CSS is not programming, it's markup. Markdown and LaTeX are also not programming. That doesn't mean there can't be plenty of programming that involves those. 'So it's pretty clear from the way the sentence is written that the parent has clearly established some sort of hierarchy in his mind, and what he actually meant was, "web programming is not real programming."' It's plausible, but again, principle of charity.

oevi 12y ago

Why? For beginners web technologies are perfect. you can have results like a first static page within the first day and from that point go on to eventually build complex web apps. and all that with the same tools and languages. you will not be a programmer at first, but you might become one.

mawburn 12y ago
I think it's a great entry point. HTML/CSS is a very low entry bar to be introduced on how to talk to a computer. Of course it's not "programming" and very little logic, but it can show people one very important thing: "See look, it's not so hard to talk to a computer. Those words on TV aren't all gibberish." It's not like it teaches bad practices like a number of other "entry level" languages do. I'm sure the majority of people in my generation (late 20's, early 30's) started with HTML/CSS when they were kids.

gamesbrainiac 12y ago

Absolutely. I always suggest python since it teaches kids to always indent and make code readable. It also has very good documentation and is a simple language. There is plenty of help out there for it as well. I initially tried js/html with the kids in my school, and although it was fun because they were making making visual things, it turned them away from the console. This is not a good thing since the console is where they have to do a lot of the work, and having an aversion to it is one of the worst things that can happen to you. I simply state this as my experience. Yours might be different.