5 ms·

"Spain" seems like the magic phrase here. Unemployment in Spain is 24.5% right now. https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#

by lacker 12y ago

"Spain" seems like the magic phrase here. Unemployment in Spain is 24.5% right now. https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=spain%20unemployment%20rate https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&e... Meanwhile unemployment in the UK is 6.2% right now. https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=england+unemployment+rate https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&e... I suggest looking for a job in London. A lot of tech companies are hiring there.

zerr 12y ago
>Unemployment in Spain is 24.5% right now. Yes, but AFAIK developers are exceptions - at least in Catalonia. Especially experienced ones. Depends on how much salary is acceptable. As I researched, for senior devs, it is 35-45K EUR/annual, which is rather low... He may as well consider consulting.
- pjgomez 12y ago
  I agree, I don't think there is crisis in IT in Spain as a whole, but our recent banking industry restructuration is dumping into the market a good amount of middle-age experienced developers and analysts.
- FranOntanaya 12y ago
  Although that's correct, IT opportunities depend a lot of on businesses having plenty of activity and, in a sense, an expectation of having to scale up in the near future. That's definitely not the case in Spain. When I was young(er), a lot of dev work in Spain looked like just building business database interfaces. My hunch (based in practically zero facts), is that many devs have been stuck there until those jobs ran out, and their skills may not fully align with more generic app problem solving.
- Kurtz79 12y ago
  Unfortunately it seems to me that consulting is not really a thing in Spain. There are a lot of consulting jobs, but they are usually the domain of consulting companies (known as "cárnicas", meat factories, among developers), that do little more than acting as a middlemen between the hire and the actual company, pocketing the substantial difference between the consulting fees and paid salary. But I work in a more traditional environment and possibly this is different in the case of web development.
  - pt765756 12y ago
    > There are a lot of consulting jobs, but they are usually the domain of consulting companies (known as "cárnicas", meat factories, among developers), that do little more than acting as a middlemen between the hire and the actual company, pocketing the substantial difference between the consulting fees and paid salary. This also describes the situation in Portugal almost perfectly with the difference that we call those companies "negreiros" (slave traders).
moconnor 12y ago
This. Our UK office has hired and relocated two developers from Spain over the past year or so. EU employment law makes it easy to move to a new country and work there and low-cost flights make it cheap to visit home.
- Kurtz79 12y ago
  Many Spanish young developer do this because salaries are substantially higher in UK, and an experience in an English speaking country is highly valued by companies in Spain (if they ever plan to come back), and of course for the experience itself. I have at least three ex coworkers that moved to UK for these reasons, even if at the time they were (more or less) happily employed in Spain.
- illumen 12y ago
  I know a bunch of people from the UK moved to Spain because of various reasons. They are earning less, but enjoy the other parts of life there.
ch_123 12y ago
Dublin too. Even while Ireland's unemployment is quite high, there's a large amount of dev positions available.
- aldanor 12y ago
  Confirming this
fasteo 12y ago
Don´t believe this figure. Spain has a huge black economy. Some estimations says that it is about 20%[1] of our GDP. It is in Spanish, but this [2] is a good documentary about it. [1] http://www.antena3.com/noticias/economia/economia-sumergida-espana-ronda-pib_2011020700228.html http://www.antena3.com/noticias/economia/economia-sumergida-... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5FRGu_W_6g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5FRGu_W_6g
- josu 12y ago
  Spain is not unique in that sense. All the countries in the world have an informal sector that is not accounted for in statistics. According to a paper from the World Bank [1] the size of the shadow economy in Spain in 2007 was 22.2% of the GDP, whilst the average for the OECD countries was 16.6%. In the UK the figure was 12.2%. So while it is true that the informal sector is somewhat larger in Spain than in other countries, the difference does not seem to be enough to explain such high unemployment rates. [1] http://www-wds.worldbank.org/servlet/WDSContentServer/WDSP/IB/2010/10/14/000158349_20101014160704/Rendered/PDF/WPS5356.pdf http://www-wds.worldbank.org/servlet/WDSContentServer/WDSP/I...
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
- majc2 12y ago
  > A 56 year old man with a family is going to struggle to just up and leave Spain and move to London though, isn't he? No more than a 30 year-old or 26 year-old with a family. It might even be the case that he's in a better position becasue his kids are grown up now. We don't know - so we should take the OP at their word that they're willing to move.
  - secfirstmd 12y ago
    Market in London is pretty good at the moment.
Kurtz79 12y ago
I'm working as a SW Engineer in Spain. None of my acquaintances in the sector (with relevant experience) have any problems in finding a job. Even people that got laid off were able to secure a new position in a relatively short time. My guess that the problem is more related to prejudices about his age, as the op says. I have a co-worker that is 50+ years old and entered the company a couple of years ago. He is a brilliant engineer and an incredibly nice guy. Still, my boss had to fight with HR in order for them to hire him, since they considered him "too old" to still be a developer.
- csbrooks 12y ago
  Fight with HR to hire him: Is age discrimination not illegal in Spain?
  - yitchelle 12y ago
    The legalities of age discrimination is one thing, and what actually happen on the ground is an entirely different matter. They don't even have to give a reason why he is not hired for the positions he has applied for.
    - johnward 12y ago
      Even in the US. If you feel like you've missed out on a job based on discrimination you still have to prove it and no employer is going to actually put "too old" in writing.
      - deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
      - csbrooks 12y ago
        I might be naive, I just feel like the HR department would be unlikely to shoot down a candidate for being too old. A big part of their job is making sure everything is at least documented enough to justify in court if it came to that. Rejecting every old candidate seems like it would make their job a lot harder.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

by lacker 12y ago

zerr 12y ago

>Unemployment in Spain is 24.5% right now. Yes, but AFAIK developers are exceptions - at least in Catalonia. Especially experienced ones. Depends on how much salary is acceptable. As I researched, for senior devs, it is 35-45K EUR/annual, which is rather low... He may as well consider consulting.

pjgomez 12y ago
I agree, I don't think there is crisis in IT in Spain as a whole, but our recent banking industry restructuration is dumping into the market a good amount of middle-age experienced developers and analysts.
FranOntanaya 12y ago
Although that's correct, IT opportunities depend a lot of on businesses having plenty of activity and, in a sense, an expectation of having to scale up in the near future. That's definitely not the case in Spain. When I was young(er), a lot of dev work in Spain looked like just building business database interfaces. My hunch (based in practically zero facts), is that many devs have been stuck there until those jobs ran out, and their skills may not fully align with more generic app problem solving.
Kurtz79 12y ago
Unfortunately it seems to me that consulting is not really a thing in Spain. There are a lot of consulting jobs, but they are usually the domain of consulting companies (known as "cárnicas", meat factories, among developers), that do little more than acting as a middlemen between the hire and the actual company, pocketing the substantial difference between the consulting fees and paid salary. But I work in a more traditional environment and possibly this is different in the case of web development.
- pt765756 12y ago
  > There are a lot of consulting jobs, but they are usually the domain of consulting companies (known as "cárnicas", meat factories, among developers), that do little more than acting as a middlemen between the hire and the actual company, pocketing the substantial difference between the consulting fees and paid salary. This also describes the situation in Portugal almost perfectly with the difference that we call those companies "negreiros" (slave traders).

moconnor 12y ago

This. Our UK office has hired and relocated two developers from Spain over the past year or so. EU employment law makes it easy to move to a new country and work there and low-cost flights make it cheap to visit home.

Kurtz79 12y ago
Many Spanish young developer do this because salaries are substantially higher in UK, and an experience in an English speaking country is highly valued by companies in Spain (if they ever plan to come back), and of course for the experience itself. I have at least three ex coworkers that moved to UK for these reasons, even if at the time they were (more or less) happily employed in Spain.
illumen 12y ago
I know a bunch of people from the UK moved to Spain because of various reasons. They are earning less, but enjoy the other parts of life there.

ch_123 12y ago

Dublin too. Even while Ireland's unemployment is quite high, there's a large amount of dev positions available.

aldanor 12y ago
Confirming this

fasteo 12y ago

Don´t believe this figure. Spain has a huge black economy. Some estimations says that it is about 20%[1] of our GDP. It is in Spanish, but this [2] is a good documentary about it. [1] http://www.antena3.com/noticias/economia/economia-sumergida-espana-ronda-pib_2011020700228.html http://www.antena3.com/noticias/economia/economia-sumergida-... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5FRGu_W_6g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5FRGu_W_6g

josu 12y ago
Spain is not unique in that sense. All the countries in the world have an informal sector that is not accounted for in statistics. According to a paper from the World Bank [1] the size of the shadow economy in Spain in 2007 was 22.2% of the GDP, whilst the average for the OECD countries was 16.6%. In the UK the figure was 12.2%. So while it is true that the informal sector is somewhat larger in Spain than in other countries, the difference does not seem to be enough to explain such high unemployment rates. [1] http://www-wds.worldbank.org/servlet/WDSContentServer/WDSP/IB/2010/10/14/000158349_20101014160704/Rendered/PDF/WPS5356.pdf http://www-wds.worldbank.org/servlet/WDSContentServer/WDSP/I...

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

majc2 12y ago
> A 56 year old man with a family is going to struggle to just up and leave Spain and move to London though, isn't he? No more than a 30 year-old or 26 year-old with a family. It might even be the case that he's in a better position becasue his kids are grown up now. We don't know - so we should take the OP at their word that they're willing to move.
- secfirstmd 12y ago
  Market in London is pretty good at the moment.

Kurtz79 12y ago

I'm working as a SW Engineer in Spain. None of my acquaintances in the sector (with relevant experience) have any problems in finding a job. Even people that got laid off were able to secure a new position in a relatively short time. My guess that the problem is more related to prejudices about his age, as the op says. I have a co-worker that is 50+ years old and entered the company a couple of years ago. He is a brilliant engineer and an incredibly nice guy. Still, my boss had to fight with HR in order for them to hire him, since they considered him "too old" to still be a developer.

csbrooks 12y ago
Fight with HR to hire him: Is age discrimination not illegal in Spain?
- yitchelle 12y ago
  The legalities of age discrimination is one thing, and what actually happen on the ground is an entirely different matter. They don't even have to give a reason why he is not hired for the positions he has applied for.
  - johnward 12y ago
    Even in the US. If you feel like you've missed out on a job based on discrimination you still have to prove it and no employer is going to actually put "too old" in writing.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - csbrooks 12y ago
      I might be naive, I just feel like the HR department would be unlikely to shoot down a candidate for being too old. A big part of their job is making sure everything is at least documented enough to justify in court if it came to that. Rejecting every old candidate seems like it would make their job a lot harder.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]