5 ms·

What I urge people in this thread to do is not to pick up a google search, or read a book, but to just go out and ask a few female friends what their thoughts a

What I urge people in this thread to do is not to pick up a google search, or read a book, but to just go out and ask a few female friends what their thoughts are about being online, being safe, and being respected, and to listen with an open mind. I see a lot of denial in here, people rooting around for reasons to think that there isn't a serious fucking problem with intimidation and psychological violence taking place on the net. I see a lot of cognitive dissonance, and that's sad, that's not a scientific mindset. You all need to get out of your comfort zone. I'm a straight white male software developer, I don't need to care about this for any reason other than a life that doesn't have truth and fairness as a cause isn't worth living. I encourage you all to calm down, reach out, and really understand what it's like on the other side.

yummyfajitas 12y ago
According to the article, the author received one unwanted message every 50 days. How is it "cognitive dissonance" or "denial" to describe pressing delete every 50 days as a minor problem? Note that in a typical 2 week period, I probably get more than 36 recruiter spams. Could you concretely explain what you feel is being denied?
- andrewvc 12y ago
  So you're seriously equating getting an unwanted job offer with a threat of sexual violence? What?
  - yummyfajitas 12y ago
    In either case i lose 1-3 seconds of my day pressing delete (note that I have received threats of sexual violence, and delete worked on them too). So yes. If you feel differently I'd be curious to hear why.
    - timmclean 12y ago
      The psychological impact of "I'll drink your blood out of your c--- after I rip it open" [1] is very different from that of recruiter spam. [1] https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/504718160902492160 https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/504718160902492160
      - yummyfajitas 12y ago
        Tl;dr its all in the mind of the receiver (aka psychological). Though I suspect that by rephrasing the exact same thing you said, I shall be down voted to [dead] shortly.
        timmclean 12y ago
        The implication that psychological damage is not "real" damage is false.
        aptwebapps 12y ago
        "its all in the mind of the receiver (aka psychological)" Two points: 1) Except when it isn't. 2) Isn't that enough? What are we, robots? It's true that some people might be able to treat the two things the same and not be affected, but they're a tiny minority. Harm is harm, even if you think that everyone should have thicker skin.
        Natsu 12y ago
        @yummyfajitas - it appears that all of your posts are dead right now. I'm not clear if you've been banned after many downvotes or what, but the last several posts are all dead now.
        dang 12y ago
        Yummyfajitas isn't banned. Some of his comments are being flagged by users.
        Natsu 12y ago
- JulianMorrison 12y ago
  One every 50 days is 1) The absolute, lowest, background radiation level, of men hassling women. 2) Even despite that, demonstrably worse that what men get. This is not the norm. This is what's still left when the volume of a woman's public presence is dialled down to infinitesimal above zero. Normal is way worse.
  - yummyfajitas 12y ago
    So the average woman gets more harassment than a woman running a popular gaming site? That seems to contradict the narrative that gaming is full of trolls. Do you have data suggesting that the average woman receives anything close to recruiter levels of unwanted mail, or is this just a guess?
    - silencio 12y ago
      I get recruiter spam and harassment alike. How's that for fun? There is no way they're on the same level. The worst recruiter I've had to handle is way easier than the tamest of harassers. It's not about frequency in the slightest.
  - verroq 12y ago
    I feel this test needs more controls. Kongregate most caters to the flash gaming, 12 year old male audience. To draw anything about online "culture" is hardly representative.
  - crassus2 12y ago
    I just want to say that I'm deeply uncomfortable with how quickly hacker news mods have moved to kill comments they disagree with since the new "professional" management came in. Is yummyfajitas hell-banned now? He had nearly 7 years of history. All his comments here are dead-ed. For the record, this is what the grandparent said that got him hell-banned: "According to the article, the author received one unwanted message every 50 days. How is it "cognitive dissonance" or "denial" to describe pressing delete every 50 days as a minor problem? Note that in a typical 2 week period, I probably get more than 36 recruiter spams. Could you concretely explain what you feel is being denied?" You might disagree with it, but it's hard to see how it is beyond the pale of polite discourse.
towaway5098 12y ago
Look to women in the industry and ask what they think. And not just the indies who are outside the industry. https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2jk2rq/ama_im_a_female_game_developer_that_has_been_in/ https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2jk2rq/ama_... If you have a twitter account, go ask #NotYourShield what women think of this as well. Don't just take any single persons word on this. Also, is this being downvoted because you don't want to read it?
- wismer 12y ago
  A racist man says: "I'm not racist; I have black friends." Do you see what's wrong with that statement?
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - towaway5098 12y ago
    A Strawman? Guilty by association? Why don't you explain how that's not demeaning to thousands of people using #NotYourShield, who disagree? "I'm not racist; I have black friends." So you assume I'm white and doing this? That's an incredible assumption when you don't know anything about me personally. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYqBdCmDR0M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYqBdCmDR0M
    - wismer 12y ago
      Wow. Ok, I was afraid that this copypasta account was going to bring up "slam-dunk" fallacies to bring me to shame, however woefully misunderstood. Let me spell it out for you - Just because some women happen to identify with the GooberGater movement doesn't mean that GooberGate is not, at the very LEAST, misogynistic in tone. If you can't understand that then there's nothing that anyone here can do for you. Go back to /r/KotakuInAction. And tell the moderators there that they may want to drop their association with /r/dickgirls and /r/breakfemanazis
      - deleted 12y ago
ddingus 12y ago
Well said. We have a similar dialog going on among the power users at Quora. The trouble women were having really escalated when the first influx of general users showed up. It got to the point where many of them were going to leave. All of us had a discussion, and Quora had a discussion in private with the women. The ban hammer came down on a surprisingly large number of users. And it still comes down. Most of us men, who participated in this, got to understand a lot. Due to the nature of that site, and that we have real life meetup events, many women felt it OK to just share with us, no filters. And I was stunned. Thought I had some idea, and just didn't. Of course, now I do. Honestly, that these stronger women were able to experience that, share it with others including men and continue on in seemingly normal ways is kind of amazing to me. If more people were able to have these kinds of conversations, I suspect social norms would start to shift quickly, as would actions to remedy the problem. Not that we don't have actions now. We do. People are supporting others who need it and we are beginning to speak out more and discuss it more. But that ban hammer session was notable. A lot of the community got the message right away.

yummyfajitas 12y ago

According to the article, the author received one unwanted message every 50 days. How is it "cognitive dissonance" or "denial" to describe pressing delete every 50 days as a minor problem? Note that in a typical 2 week period, I probably get more than 36 recruiter spams. Could you concretely explain what you feel is being denied?

andrewvc 12y ago
So you're seriously equating getting an unwanted job offer with a threat of sexual violence? What?
- yummyfajitas 12y ago
  In either case i lose 1-3 seconds of my day pressing delete (note that I have received threats of sexual violence, and delete worked on them too). So yes. If you feel differently I'd be curious to hear why.
  - timmclean 12y ago
    The psychological impact of "I'll drink your blood out of your c--- after I rip it open" [1] is very different from that of recruiter spam. [1] https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/504718160902492160 https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/504718160902492160
    - yummyfajitas 12y ago
      Tl;dr its all in the mind of the receiver (aka psychological). Though I suspect that by rephrasing the exact same thing you said, I shall be down voted to [dead] shortly.
      - timmclean 12y ago
        The implication that psychological damage is not "real" damage is false.
      - aptwebapps 12y ago
        "its all in the mind of the receiver (aka psychological)" Two points: 1) Except when it isn't. 2) Isn't that enough? What are we, robots? It's true that some people might be able to treat the two things the same and not be affected, but they're a tiny minority. Harm is harm, even if you think that everyone should have thicker skin.
        Natsu 12y ago
        @yummyfajitas - it appears that all of your posts are dead right now. I'm not clear if you've been banned after many downvotes or what, but the last several posts are all dead now.
        dang 12y ago
        Yummyfajitas isn't banned. Some of his comments are being flagged by users.
        Natsu 12y ago
JulianMorrison 12y ago
One every 50 days is 1) The absolute, lowest, background radiation level, of men hassling women. 2) Even despite that, demonstrably worse that what men get. This is not the norm. This is what's still left when the volume of a woman's public presence is dialled down to infinitesimal above zero. Normal is way worse.
- yummyfajitas 12y ago
  So the average woman gets more harassment than a woman running a popular gaming site? That seems to contradict the narrative that gaming is full of trolls. Do you have data suggesting that the average woman receives anything close to recruiter levels of unwanted mail, or is this just a guess?
  - silencio 12y ago
    I get recruiter spam and harassment alike. How's that for fun? There is no way they're on the same level. The worst recruiter I've had to handle is way easier than the tamest of harassers. It's not about frequency in the slightest.
- verroq 12y ago
  I feel this test needs more controls. Kongregate most caters to the flash gaming, 12 year old male audience. To draw anything about online "culture" is hardly representative.
- crassus2 12y ago
  I just want to say that I'm deeply uncomfortable with how quickly hacker news mods have moved to kill comments they disagree with since the new "professional" management came in. Is yummyfajitas hell-banned now? He had nearly 7 years of history. All his comments here are dead-ed. For the record, this is what the grandparent said that got him hell-banned: "According to the article, the author received one unwanted message every 50 days. How is it "cognitive dissonance" or "denial" to describe pressing delete every 50 days as a minor problem? Note that in a typical 2 week period, I probably get more than 36 recruiter spams. Could you concretely explain what you feel is being denied?" You might disagree with it, but it's hard to see how it is beyond the pale of polite discourse.

towaway5098 12y ago

Look to women in the industry and ask what they think. And not just the indies who are outside the industry. https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2jk2rq/ama_im_a_female_game_developer_that_has_been_in/ https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2jk2rq/ama_... If you have a twitter account, go ask #NotYourShield what women think of this as well. Don't just take any single persons word on this. Also, is this being downvoted because you don't want to read it?

wismer 12y ago
A racist man says: "I'm not racist; I have black friends." Do you see what's wrong with that statement?
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- towaway5098 12y ago
  A Strawman? Guilty by association? Why don't you explain how that's not demeaning to thousands of people using #NotYourShield, who disagree? "I'm not racist; I have black friends." So you assume I'm white and doing this? That's an incredible assumption when you don't know anything about me personally. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYqBdCmDR0M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYqBdCmDR0M
  - wismer 12y ago
    Wow. Ok, I was afraid that this copypasta account was going to bring up "slam-dunk" fallacies to bring me to shame, however woefully misunderstood. Let me spell it out for you - Just because some women happen to identify with the GooberGater movement doesn't mean that GooberGate is not, at the very LEAST, misogynistic in tone. If you can't understand that then there's nothing that anyone here can do for you. Go back to /r/KotakuInAction. And tell the moderators there that they may want to drop their association with /r/dickgirls and /r/breakfemanazis
    - deleted 12y ago

ddingus 12y ago

Well said. We have a similar dialog going on among the power users at Quora. The trouble women were having really escalated when the first influx of general users showed up. It got to the point where many of them were going to leave. All of us had a discussion, and Quora had a discussion in private with the women. The ban hammer came down on a surprisingly large number of users. And it still comes down. Most of us men, who participated in this, got to understand a lot. Due to the nature of that site, and that we have real life meetup events, many women felt it OK to just share with us, no filters. And I was stunned. Thought I had some idea, and just didn't. Of course, now I do. Honestly, that these stronger women were able to experience that, share it with others including men and continue on in seemingly normal ways is kind of amazing to me. If more people were able to have these kinds of conversations, I suspect social norms would start to shift quickly, as would actions to remedy the problem. Not that we don't have actions now. We do. People are supporting others who need it and we are beginning to speak out more and discuss it more. But that ban hammer session was notable. A lot of the community got the message right away.