5 ms·

The doctor should have known better than to go to a bowling alley soon after he returned. Whether or not he was contagious now they have to perform contact trac

by msie 12y ago

The doctor should have known better than to go to a bowling alley soon after he returned. Whether or not he was contagious now they have to perform contact tracing and disinfect the place.

jbarrec 12y ago
Totally agree. It sounds like he was all over the place, and using mass transportation. If anyone needs to seek refuge out on Long Island just let me know!! :D
natch 12y ago
Not to mention riding the subway. Good luck doing contact tracing with that. I'm not saying he was contagious. I hope he wasn't. Was the bowling alley public subway trip really a must-do thing, for someone who had just directly worked with ebola patients? Could this kind of thinking not be part of the training for this kind of work, I wonder?
- maxerickson 12y ago
  I think discipline is the bigger issue than awareness. Even someone who absolutely knows better can end up thinking that the bad thing can't happen to them.
  - georgemcbay 12y ago
    Yup. In my experience with experts I'd say especially someone who "knows better" can end up thinking that the bad thing can't happen to them right up until they, in a fit of being human, have an oops and it does.
    - bjz_ 12y ago
      Yeah. I hate this 'holier than thou' attitude that some folks on this thread are displaying. We are all human, and we all do stupid things based on our psychology. The best we can do is create systems to help guard against our own mistakes.
      - jeffdavis 12y ago
        "The best we can do is create systems to help guard against our own mistakes." Like enforced isolation of some kind? The thing that people have been asking for since the beginning, but is a bad idea for some reason that nobody can explain?
        EliRivers 12y ago
        Perhaps it's illegal to imprison people who have committed no crime, on the guess that because they were interacting with people who had a disease, they might have it too. Also, in this case and many like it, imprisoning this man would have been much more expensive than simply testing him for the disease. There you go; one reason it's a bad idea to imprison someone you think might be carrying ebola is that you can just test their blood and know for sure if they are. Seems a lot cheaper and better all round than imprisoning people.
        dhimes 12y ago
        Quarantine is not imprisonment, and is certainly not illegal. In fact, it is customary if you, for example, sail a boat from one country to another. The point here is that it's not clear that there's a reason to enforce a quarantine- yet. But if it becomes clear, then we need to have the balls to do it.
        EliRivers 12y ago
        Quarantine is not imprisonment Are they free to leave whenever they wish? No? Sure sounds like imprisonment. Maybe it's for the best, but that doesn't mean it's not imprisonment. It's on the same moral spectrum as conscription and forced labour; the removal of fundamental rights from an individual for the betterment of a great many other people. I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, but it should be recognised that under the social system the country in question (USA) subscribes to, it's a fundamentally evil act.
        DanBC 12y ago
        Detaining people against their will is the definition of imprisonment. While not illegal there should be comprehensive legal safeguards around it. And, if it's not illegal, what are the laws that regulate quarantine in the US?
- uptown 12y ago
  It took the MTA over three weeks to remove a used condom hanging from the pole of an F train. I'm guessing whatever trains he took haven't been scoured beyond the bare minimum. http://gothamist.com/2014/10/14/used_condom_f_subway.php http://gothamist.com/2014/10/14/used_condom_f_subway.php
sigmar 12y ago
well, he went to a bowling alley eight days after getting back to NY. What is more egregious is that the NYTimes is reporting he was feeling sluggish on Tuesday, why didn't he self-quarantine or contact someone earlier than today?
- fennecfoxen 12y ago
  I haven't been to JFK from Africa, but I've been there from London, Amsterdam, and Berlin, flights which are (if anything) shorter... and I was sluggish for a whole week after getting back, just going to throw that out there.
- droithomme 12y ago
  Also, when he says he called DWB on Thursday his temperature was 103. Did it go from 99 to 103 overnight? Or was he running a low grade temperature for several days. Accounts of how he was found are a bit odd. In some articles the fire department was sent to retrieve him. According to another article, a tenant in his building claims police broke down the door to get into his apartment.
  - maxerickson 12y ago
    The reports now are saying his temperature was 100.3 F and that the 103 was a mistake.
stevewepay 12y ago
Everything I've read suggests that this doctor is conscientious, selfless and kind. I don't believe he would have exposed others to Ebola if he had any inclination that he was infected. He measured his temperature twice a day as was required and didn't feel sick until today. It could be the case that he was infected 2-3 weeks ago, but since the average time of symptoms showing up is 8-10 days because he was symptom-free before leaving for nyc, he might have thought he was fine.
- thret 12y ago
  "Symptoms may appear anywhere from 2 to 21 days after exposure to Ebola, but the average is 8 to 10 days." http://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/symptoms/index.html http://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/symptoms/index.html "A 21 day period for quarantine may result in the release of individuals with a 0.2 – 12% risk of release prior to full opportunity for the incubation to proceed." http://currents.plos.org/outbreaks/article/on-the-quarantine-period-for-ebola-virus/ http://currents.plos.org/outbreaks/article/on-the-quarantine...
kamaal 12y ago
>>now they have to perform contact tracing and disinfect the place. I wonder how feasible this is. Its not just the bowling alley, using public rest rooms, subway, or utensils at a restaurant. Its almost impossible to find every thing he came in contact with and disinfect it. Plus in case of stuff like utensils, whats to guarantee that they were not mixed with each other and used by other people already. If some one has been infected due to this by now. It will become impossible to get a realistic perspective of how far this thing would have spread. In short you are dealing with a exponential growth scenario.Which is why these sort of things are so dangerous.
- maxerickson 12y ago
  Restaurants in New York would routinely sanitize utensils (as in, as part of the washing after every use).
rurban 12y ago
Please read up on Ebola. It is only contagious when the patient is experiencing symptoms, not earlier. He got fever Thursday morning. So he knew better, just hackers have no idea. "Since returning, he had been taking his temperature twice a day". Or maybe they just cannot read. So no, they don't have to disinfect the bowling area. But people are hysterical, so they did. Even the NY Times got it right this time: "People infected with Ebola cannot spread the disease until they begin to display symptoms, and it cannot be spread through the air."
- hga 12y ago
  We think that is true. But we don't know. Prior to this outbreak, this Ziare strain of Ebolavirus, now formally known as "Ebola virus", has never infected more than 318 people at a time, and not a whole lot more than a thousand total: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ebola_outbreaks#List_of_outbreaks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ebola_outbreaks#List_o... I guarantee that at least one of the things the usual suspects like the CDC "know" about its transmission is wrong. Consequentially wrong? Well, we'll see. As for this case, he was not feeling well (also described as "sluggish") for a couple of days before his self-monitored temperature spiked. Which is prompting the usual suspects to say that that wasn't a "symptom" ... which is open to question.
  - maxerickson 12y ago
    What's at risk with your guarantee? An internet handle? Meanwhile, the transmissions in Dallas have all been in keeping with the things the usual suspects were saying (health care workers did become infected there, but they are known to be at higher risk, PPE is known not to be 100% safe, the hospital did not have great PPE procedures in place).
    - hga 12y ago
      My "universal" login handle (aside from the occasional rigid company) that I've been using since 1978 (sic); my user page's email also leads straight to my true name, home address, etc. As for Dallas, the plural of anecdote is not data. We just don't know yet; for example, in 1st World conditions where IV saline etc. are standard, the death rate may be well below the 70% currently estimated in West Africa. Although your points about the Dallas Ebola Magnet Hospital of Excellence's, are correct: while following the then current CDC "protocols" (scare quotes since the CDC and others invested so much into their sanctity vs. health care workers following them), were inadequate, e.g. no neck coverage. Heck, look at the standard Bellevue Hospital PPE picture that's been floating around for many days, e.g. http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/health/bellevue-hospital-prepared-treat-doctor-contracted-ebola-article-1.1985538 http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/health/bellevue-hospit... Based on what we suspect the person on the right would stand a serious chance of getting Ebola, and that's no longer the protocol. Or look at this gem from the U.K. press: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2805930/Should-Officers-marking-Ebola-patient-s-NYC-apartment-toss-gloves-masks-caution-tape-PUBLIC-trash-city-sidewalk-leave.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2805930/Should-Offic... You don't suppose there's some environmental, population density, etc. differences that might make NYC's experience different than Dallas'?

by msie 12y ago

The doctor should have known better than to go to a bowling alley soon after he returned. Whether or not he was contagious now they have to perform contact tracing and disinfect the place.

jbarrec 12y ago

Totally agree. It sounds like he was all over the place, and using mass transportation. If anyone needs to seek refuge out on Long Island just let me know!! :D

natch 12y ago

Not to mention riding the subway. Good luck doing contact tracing with that. I'm not saying he was contagious. I hope he wasn't. Was the bowling alley public subway trip really a must-do thing, for someone who had just directly worked with ebola patients? Could this kind of thinking not be part of the training for this kind of work, I wonder?

maxerickson 12y ago
I think discipline is the bigger issue than awareness. Even someone who absolutely knows better can end up thinking that the bad thing can't happen to them.
- georgemcbay 12y ago
  Yup. In my experience with experts I'd say especially someone who "knows better" can end up thinking that the bad thing can't happen to them right up until they, in a fit of being human, have an oops and it does.
  - bjz_ 12y ago
    Yeah. I hate this 'holier than thou' attitude that some folks on this thread are displaying. We are all human, and we all do stupid things based on our psychology. The best we can do is create systems to help guard against our own mistakes.
    - jeffdavis 12y ago
      "The best we can do is create systems to help guard against our own mistakes." Like enforced isolation of some kind? The thing that people have been asking for since the beginning, but is a bad idea for some reason that nobody can explain?
      - EliRivers 12y ago
        Perhaps it's illegal to imprison people who have committed no crime, on the guess that because they were interacting with people who had a disease, they might have it too. Also, in this case and many like it, imprisoning this man would have been much more expensive than simply testing him for the disease. There you go; one reason it's a bad idea to imprison someone you think might be carrying ebola is that you can just test their blood and know for sure if they are. Seems a lot cheaper and better all round than imprisoning people.
        dhimes 12y ago
        Quarantine is not imprisonment, and is certainly not illegal. In fact, it is customary if you, for example, sail a boat from one country to another. The point here is that it's not clear that there's a reason to enforce a quarantine- yet. But if it becomes clear, then we need to have the balls to do it.
        EliRivers 12y ago
        Quarantine is not imprisonment Are they free to leave whenever they wish? No? Sure sounds like imprisonment. Maybe it's for the best, but that doesn't mean it's not imprisonment. It's on the same moral spectrum as conscription and forced labour; the removal of fundamental rights from an individual for the betterment of a great many other people. I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, but it should be recognised that under the social system the country in question (USA) subscribes to, it's a fundamentally evil act.
        DanBC 12y ago
        Detaining people against their will is the definition of imprisonment. While not illegal there should be comprehensive legal safeguards around it. And, if it's not illegal, what are the laws that regulate quarantine in the US?
uptown 12y ago
It took the MTA over three weeks to remove a used condom hanging from the pole of an F train. I'm guessing whatever trains he took haven't been scoured beyond the bare minimum. http://gothamist.com/2014/10/14/used_condom_f_subway.php http://gothamist.com/2014/10/14/used_condom_f_subway.php

sigmar 12y ago

well, he went to a bowling alley eight days after getting back to NY. What is more egregious is that the NYTimes is reporting he was feeling sluggish on Tuesday, why didn't he self-quarantine or contact someone earlier than today?

fennecfoxen 12y ago
I haven't been to JFK from Africa, but I've been there from London, Amsterdam, and Berlin, flights which are (if anything) shorter... and I was sluggish for a whole week after getting back, just going to throw that out there.
droithomme 12y ago
Also, when he says he called DWB on Thursday his temperature was 103. Did it go from 99 to 103 overnight? Or was he running a low grade temperature for several days. Accounts of how he was found are a bit odd. In some articles the fire department was sent to retrieve him. According to another article, a tenant in his building claims police broke down the door to get into his apartment.
- maxerickson 12y ago
  The reports now are saying his temperature was 100.3 F and that the 103 was a mistake.

stevewepay 12y ago

Everything I've read suggests that this doctor is conscientious, selfless and kind. I don't believe he would have exposed others to Ebola if he had any inclination that he was infected. He measured his temperature twice a day as was required and didn't feel sick until today. It could be the case that he was infected 2-3 weeks ago, but since the average time of symptoms showing up is 8-10 days because he was symptom-free before leaving for nyc, he might have thought he was fine.

thret 12y ago
"Symptoms may appear anywhere from 2 to 21 days after exposure to Ebola, but the average is 8 to 10 days." http://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/symptoms/index.html http://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/symptoms/index.html "A 21 day period for quarantine may result in the release of individuals with a 0.2 – 12% risk of release prior to full opportunity for the incubation to proceed." http://currents.plos.org/outbreaks/article/on-the-quarantine-period-for-ebola-virus/ http://currents.plos.org/outbreaks/article/on-the-quarantine...

kamaal 12y ago

>>now they have to perform contact tracing and disinfect the place. I wonder how feasible this is. Its not just the bowling alley, using public rest rooms, subway, or utensils at a restaurant. Its almost impossible to find every thing he came in contact with and disinfect it. Plus in case of stuff like utensils, whats to guarantee that they were not mixed with each other and used by other people already. If some one has been infected due to this by now. It will become impossible to get a realistic perspective of how far this thing would have spread. In short you are dealing with a exponential growth scenario.Which is why these sort of things are so dangerous.

maxerickson 12y ago
Restaurants in New York would routinely sanitize utensils (as in, as part of the washing after every use).

rurban 12y ago

Please read up on Ebola. It is only contagious when the patient is experiencing symptoms, not earlier. He got fever Thursday morning. So he knew better, just hackers have no idea. "Since returning, he had been taking his temperature twice a day". Or maybe they just cannot read. So no, they don't have to disinfect the bowling area. But people are hysterical, so they did. Even the NY Times got it right this time: "People infected with Ebola cannot spread the disease until they begin to display symptoms, and it cannot be spread through the air."

hga 12y ago
We think that is true. But we don't know. Prior to this outbreak, this Ziare strain of Ebolavirus, now formally known as "Ebola virus", has never infected more than 318 people at a time, and not a whole lot more than a thousand total: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ebola_outbreaks#List_of_outbreaks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ebola_outbreaks#List_o... I guarantee that at least one of the things the usual suspects like the CDC "know" about its transmission is wrong. Consequentially wrong? Well, we'll see. As for this case, he was not feeling well (also described as "sluggish") for a couple of days before his self-monitored temperature spiked. Which is prompting the usual suspects to say that that wasn't a "symptom" ... which is open to question.
- maxerickson 12y ago
  What's at risk with your guarantee? An internet handle? Meanwhile, the transmissions in Dallas have all been in keeping with the things the usual suspects were saying (health care workers did become infected there, but they are known to be at higher risk, PPE is known not to be 100% safe, the hospital did not have great PPE procedures in place).
  - hga 12y ago
    My "universal" login handle (aside from the occasional rigid company) that I've been using since 1978 (sic); my user page's email also leads straight to my true name, home address, etc. As for Dallas, the plural of anecdote is not data. We just don't know yet; for example, in 1st World conditions where IV saline etc. are standard, the death rate may be well below the 70% currently estimated in West Africa. Although your points about the Dallas Ebola Magnet Hospital of Excellence's, are correct: while following the then current CDC "protocols" (scare quotes since the CDC and others invested so much into their sanctity vs. health care workers following them), were inadequate, e.g. no neck coverage. Heck, look at the standard Bellevue Hospital PPE picture that's been floating around for many days, e.g. http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/health/bellevue-hospital-prepared-treat-doctor-contracted-ebola-article-1.1985538 http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/health/bellevue-hospit... Based on what we suspect the person on the right would stand a serious chance of getting Ebola, and that's no longer the protocol. Or look at this gem from the U.K. press: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2805930/Should-Officers-marking-Ebola-patient-s-NYC-apartment-toss-gloves-masks-caution-tape-PUBLIC-trash-city-sidewalk-leave.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2805930/Should-Offic... You don't suppose there's some environmental, population density, etc. differences that might make NYC's experience different than Dallas'?