5 ms·

A shame the point needs to be repeatedly made. A five minute foray into the wasteland that is twitch chat will show some pretty stark differences between how me

by chiaro 12y ago

A shame the point needs to be repeatedly made. A five minute foray into the wasteland that is twitch chat will show some pretty stark differences between how men and women become targets for trolling and vitriol. While some of the concerns of the whole gamergate mess were perhaps reasonable at some point in time, the whole thing has disappeared under a huge number of people who see their any supposed righteousness as license to indulge in the pettiest of attacks that aligns them with segments of society I'd foolishly thought we'd largely left behind. Seriously, if you're looking for some injustices in the world to help make your life meaningful, you can do a hell of a lot better than "ethics in video game journalism", vitriolic element or no.

droopyEyelids 12y ago
I'm commenting to register my frustration with what I call the "harm reductionism fallacy". At it's most extreme point, it can be parodied to something like "You have no right to complain about a problem in your privileged life because people are starving in $COUNTRY" In all it's forms, it's a sort of ridicule directed towards people trying to make their lives better. I believe people have the right to complain about, and try to improve, any and every element of their lives- right down to asking for better/healthier free lunches from their employers. Working for ethics in video game journalism and to reduce nasty sex related comments towards women stands to reform a genuinely nasty cesspool in modern society
- vacri 12y ago
  The impassioned hysteria over 'ethics in video game journalism' is the problematic part, not the issue itself. And, to be frank, that ridiculous level of hysteria makes it clear that it's not really about ethics in video game journalism. No-one is dead or has been maimed by it. Lives aren't destroyed by it. Basically, it's a good example of dog whistle politics, using a term that is more palatable to push a less palatable agenda: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog-whistle_politics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog-whistle_politics
  - paulnechifor 12y ago
    > The impassioned hysteria over 'ethics in video game journalism' is the problematic part, not the issue itself. The fact that people like you are saying that others have no right to be concerned and angry about unethical journalism is the reason for the impassioned hysteria in the first place. > And, to be frank, that ridiculous level of hysteria makes it clear that it's not really about ethics in video game journalism. Really? Tens of publications proclaim gamers dead in unison and you expect a large diverse group of people to be completely calm about it. Edit: Senseless downvotes don't make you right. Edit 2: I am taking downvotes personally because I only see white comments for trolling and spamming on HN.
    - wismer 12y ago
      "It's about ethics" yet most of the moderators of the subreddit /r/KotakuInAction are also moderators of distinctly misogynstic subreddits http://i.imgur.com/3j7uzXZ.jpg http://i.imgur.com/3j7uzXZ.jpg EDIT: You might be taking downvotes too personally.
    - vacri 12y ago
      I've been a heavy gamer for 25 years, with literally hundreds of games in my Steam account (I started out with Amiga floppies), and my heaviest-played games in that steam list have over half a thousand hours on them, each. I'm a heavy gamer, it's my vice, and I've been part of the 'scene' for a long time. So I'm not commenting as an outsider when I say that gamers, as a demographic, are the most self-entitled bunch of whiners I've ever seen. I've worked in tech support, in medicine, in retail, with children... and nothing holds a candle to the gaming community when they feel wronged. Every issue is blown way out of proportion. And they need to be called on it, because otherwise they keep on doing it. I'm so tired of this manufactured outrage. I see less passion in the comments when there's an article about child sexual abuse on a newspaper website, and that's a crime that raises pretty much everyone's hackles. So, speaking as a lifelong heavy gamer, this GamerGate bullshit has little to do with ethics in gaming journalism - a field that is so tangential to the important things in the human experience. Note also that I never said it was nothing to be concerned about or no right to complain; I said that the levels of hysterical concern were ridiculous and overblown. But of course, if you were actually interested in integrity, you wouldn't have characterised my comments of 'ridiculous levels of hysteria' as 'expecting complete calm', as if that's the only other possible option. A classic strawman fallacy. Perhaps you should show some of this integrity that you demand of others? Perhaps I should put it a different way: Issues with the supply of your entertainment are never worth a death threat.
- aptwebapps 12y ago
  You can be concerned about ethics in game journalism and try to do something about it even though other injustices exist, by my book at least. But the gamergate tag has been effectively taken over by the misogynists and haters. That may not be fair, but it's a fact. If people in the first group continue to use that umbrella they are aiding the people in the second group. Again, not fair, but that's the way it is.
  - undersuit 12y ago
    It's incredibly unfair because the members of gamergate that aren't spewing misogyny and hate can't really start another movement, that movement would just be taken over by the same people they are trying to distance themselves from. So they can't distance themselves from the hate and their movement is being attacked because of the hate coming from these interlopers and Gawker/The Media is going to just continue to inflame the haters. How are people supposed to get anything done?
Pxtl 12y ago
I tend to think Gamergate was a brewing culture war that was just looking for a spark to start the fire. Gamer culture has had a persecution complex for well over a generation, particularly with respect to the press - even the gaming press. Being repeatedly insulted and attacked by the media has made them circle their wagons instinctively. Combined with a substantial fraction of gamers that are intensely misogynistic and this ugliness was practically inevitable. The problem is that gamers picked a fight with SJWs, which are effectively their own mirror image - the same obsessiveness and mean-spirited put-downs and in-group high-fives. I mean, the fact that the SJWs are right is almost immaterial - in the words of The Big Lebowski: "You're not wrong, Walter, you're just an asshole". Online social justice groups have a knack for utterly alienating and insulting everyone they could ever hope to convince, even those who broadly agree with them. Combine that with Gawker media's spectacular ability to stir the pot, and a few prominent right-wing culture-war bloggers feeding the gamer-gaters' persecution complex, and we're seeing outright radicalization. You isolate and insult a guy and then give him an online culture of like-minded outcasts and they start encouraging each other to do drastic things. There are obvious parallels to other movements of angry young men... It's a perfect storm, and it's only going to get worse before it gets better since anybody who's trying to talk the gamergaters down from the ledge has to have infinite patience for their monomaniacal rationalizations. They see themselves as the defenders of rationality surrounded by SJWs who fling glib insults... and gaming is founded on endlessly grinding against a pointless task for fun. It's profoundly sad to see so many gamers rally behind that gamergate banner. To see harassment and threats and ruining women's lives become the public image of core gamer culture. I'm really worried that this is going to get worse before it gets better. The "us vs. them" mentality of the hardcore gamer world is too old and well-established, and everybody else involved is either feeding into it or is drowned out by the din.
- ncallaway 12y ago
  I started seeing the phrase "Social Justice Warrior" used a lot as soon as #Gamergate happened. I have yet to see it well defined, though. I realize it's tangential to your point, but I'm curious how would you define or describe a SJW?
  - 12y ago

by chiaro 12y ago

droopyEyelids 12y ago

I'm commenting to register my frustration with what I call the "harm reductionism fallacy". At it's most extreme point, it can be parodied to something like "You have no right to complain about a problem in your privileged life because people are starving in $COUNTRY" In all it's forms, it's a sort of ridicule directed towards people trying to make their lives better. I believe people have the right to complain about, and try to improve, any and every element of their lives- right down to asking for better/healthier free lunches from their employers. Working for ethics in video game journalism and to reduce nasty sex related comments towards women stands to reform a genuinely nasty cesspool in modern society

vacri 12y ago
The impassioned hysteria over 'ethics in video game journalism' is the problematic part, not the issue itself. And, to be frank, that ridiculous level of hysteria makes it clear that it's not really about ethics in video game journalism. No-one is dead or has been maimed by it. Lives aren't destroyed by it. Basically, it's a good example of dog whistle politics, using a term that is more palatable to push a less palatable agenda: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog-whistle_politics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog-whistle_politics
- paulnechifor 12y ago
  > The impassioned hysteria over 'ethics in video game journalism' is the problematic part, not the issue itself. The fact that people like you are saying that others have no right to be concerned and angry about unethical journalism is the reason for the impassioned hysteria in the first place. > And, to be frank, that ridiculous level of hysteria makes it clear that it's not really about ethics in video game journalism. Really? Tens of publications proclaim gamers dead in unison and you expect a large diverse group of people to be completely calm about it. Edit: Senseless downvotes don't make you right. Edit 2: I am taking downvotes personally because I only see white comments for trolling and spamming on HN.
  - wismer 12y ago
    "It's about ethics" yet most of the moderators of the subreddit /r/KotakuInAction are also moderators of distinctly misogynstic subreddits http://i.imgur.com/3j7uzXZ.jpg http://i.imgur.com/3j7uzXZ.jpg EDIT: You might be taking downvotes too personally.
  - vacri 12y ago
    I've been a heavy gamer for 25 years, with literally hundreds of games in my Steam account (I started out with Amiga floppies), and my heaviest-played games in that steam list have over half a thousand hours on them, each. I'm a heavy gamer, it's my vice, and I've been part of the 'scene' for a long time. So I'm not commenting as an outsider when I say that gamers, as a demographic, are the most self-entitled bunch of whiners I've ever seen. I've worked in tech support, in medicine, in retail, with children... and nothing holds a candle to the gaming community when they feel wronged. Every issue is blown way out of proportion. And they need to be called on it, because otherwise they keep on doing it. I'm so tired of this manufactured outrage. I see less passion in the comments when there's an article about child sexual abuse on a newspaper website, and that's a crime that raises pretty much everyone's hackles. So, speaking as a lifelong heavy gamer, this GamerGate bullshit has little to do with ethics in gaming journalism - a field that is so tangential to the important things in the human experience. Note also that I never said it was nothing to be concerned about or no right to complain; I said that the levels of hysterical concern were ridiculous and overblown. But of course, if you were actually interested in integrity, you wouldn't have characterised my comments of 'ridiculous levels of hysteria' as 'expecting complete calm', as if that's the only other possible option. A classic strawman fallacy. Perhaps you should show some of this integrity that you demand of others? Perhaps I should put it a different way: Issues with the supply of your entertainment are never worth a death threat.
aptwebapps 12y ago
You can be concerned about ethics in game journalism and try to do something about it even though other injustices exist, by my book at least. But the gamergate tag has been effectively taken over by the misogynists and haters. That may not be fair, but it's a fact. If people in the first group continue to use that umbrella they are aiding the people in the second group. Again, not fair, but that's the way it is.
- undersuit 12y ago
  It's incredibly unfair because the members of gamergate that aren't spewing misogyny and hate can't really start another movement, that movement would just be taken over by the same people they are trying to distance themselves from. So they can't distance themselves from the hate and their movement is being attacked because of the hate coming from these interlopers and Gawker/The Media is going to just continue to inflame the haters. How are people supposed to get anything done?

Pxtl 12y ago

I tend to think Gamergate was a brewing culture war that was just looking for a spark to start the fire. Gamer culture has had a persecution complex for well over a generation, particularly with respect to the press - even the gaming press. Being repeatedly insulted and attacked by the media has made them circle their wagons instinctively. Combined with a substantial fraction of gamers that are intensely misogynistic and this ugliness was practically inevitable. The problem is that gamers picked a fight with SJWs, which are effectively their own mirror image - the same obsessiveness and mean-spirited put-downs and in-group high-fives. I mean, the fact that the SJWs are right is almost immaterial - in the words of The Big Lebowski: "You're not wrong, Walter, you're just an asshole". Online social justice groups have a knack for utterly alienating and insulting everyone they could ever hope to convince, even those who broadly agree with them. Combine that with Gawker media's spectacular ability to stir the pot, and a few prominent right-wing culture-war bloggers feeding the gamer-gaters' persecution complex, and we're seeing outright radicalization. You isolate and insult a guy and then give him an online culture of like-minded outcasts and they start encouraging each other to do drastic things. There are obvious parallels to other movements of angry young men... It's a perfect storm, and it's only going to get worse before it gets better since anybody who's trying to talk the gamergaters down from the ledge has to have infinite patience for their monomaniacal rationalizations. They see themselves as the defenders of rationality surrounded by SJWs who fling glib insults... and gaming is founded on endlessly grinding against a pointless task for fun. It's profoundly sad to see so many gamers rally behind that gamergate banner. To see harassment and threats and ruining women's lives become the public image of core gamer culture. I'm really worried that this is going to get worse before it gets better. The "us vs. them" mentality of the hardcore gamer world is too old and well-established, and everybody else involved is either feeding into it or is drowned out by the din.

ncallaway 12y ago
I started seeing the phrase "Social Justice Warrior" used a lot as soon as #Gamergate happened. I have yet to see it well defined, though. I realize it's tangential to your point, but I'm curious how would you define or describe a SJW?
- 12y ago