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Just so you have some background -- I know homeless people, and I buy food for the homeless on a regular basis. I sit and eat and talk with them, give them ride

Just so you have some background -- I know homeless people, and I buy food for the homeless on a regular basis. I sit and eat and talk with them, give them rides, take them to hospitals, etc..., and I consider many of them friends. I'm not a therapist, or any sort of expert, but I have some experience. It's just not street-food that's making or keeping people homeless, and it's a gross mischaracterization to claim that street feeding is what keeps people homeless. I just can't see how that contributes any any significant way to their issues. The homeless people I know have serious physical and/or mental health issues. People aren't exactly lining up to give them food and money. Many of them simply can't manage a budget and afford enough to eat through most of the month, so they supplement their diet however they can. They know that there are programs out there to help them, but they don't take advantage of them now. Making it illegal to give them food isn't going to somehow force them to get help. It'll just make it worse for the homeless.

drez 12y ago
> They know that there are programs out there to help them, but they don't take advantage of them now. Making it illegal to give them food isn't going to somehow force them to get help. It'll just make it worse for the homeless. Are you sure? I'm not trying to attack your point, but what would happen if your homeless friends actually started taking advantage of these programs that are put in place to help them? Right now they don't need to because they are getting by on the kindness of others, but what if they had no other option but to go to these mental hospitals, homeless shelters, food banks, etc, where they could someday learn to take care of themselves and break the cycle? I think what you're doing shows how much of a loving and kind-hearted person you are, but try to consider the other side of the argument. This is an enormously hard problem (dating back thousands of years). We need a way to break the cycle, and the current status quo just isn't working.
- bduerst 12y ago
  That's a gross generalization, almost a false dichotomy. webnrrd2k's experience mirrors my past experiences, in that many homeless simply don't have the mental faculties to take care of themselves. This includes having enough sapience to seek out existing programs for help. Many will self medicate with illegal or stolen drugs, which only exasperates their situation. It's very easy to project ourselves into these situations and think "What would I do if I were homeless?", and assume that if you were lazy enough and taken care of you would probably stay homeless. The fact that you are even able to jump these mental hurdles and consider these situations is why you are not currently homeless.
- webnrrd2k 12y ago
  To help set the context, some, maybe most, of the homeless people I know have done some pretty stupid things, even committed serious crimes, but they aren't really like that now. The homeless people I know are generally the kinder, gentler types -- down on their luck musicians, artists, more intellectual types. I tend avoid anyone who is violent or "scammy". This is just my opinion, based my my limited experience. And homelessness is a big problem, so there will be a lot of different approaches. But I see it as primarily a problem of mental health. A lot of the homeless I know were abused, or came from shitty families, or had abusive parents, or any of a number of major childhood issues and their families didn't have the financial or emotional resources to do anything about it. So I tend to see "get tough on the homeless" programs as blaming the victim. I think that forcing people to go into any kind of program or shelter or whatever is just going to lead to resentment and more problems in the long run. Most shelters are pretty bad already, and that's with people who want to be there. Imagine how bad it'll be with people who really don't want to be there. I think it's important to keep people accountable -- E.g. Insist that if they want to be in a clean, decent shelter for three months and get meals then they need to make thrir bed, do dishes, go to group meeting daily and look for work, or see a doctor or psychiatrist, etc... What I think they really need is a long-term program for re-integrating into society, sort of like prisoners getting out, one that includes basics like a place to live for a year or two, health care, food, as well as psychological care and job training. Many will be helped by that, but not all. Hopefully, people from the local community or church or something will be involved as well. It's also important that there be a self-help group sort of like AA, but geared for the homeless, "homeless anonymous", where people could talk openly about their life and experiences and be with others who have been through similar things.
- webnrrd2k 12y ago
  You know, now that I think of it, I had a friend in college years ago who (previous to college) was a homeless single mom. She got on a program in California that paid her rent for a few years while she went to school. I'm not sure if it was part of Social Security or not, but I seem to remember it was a state program. I think there are better programs, in general, for single moms and/or abused women, but I don't know much about that. So she'd be an example of someone who took advantage of a program and was helped, but I don't think she's a good fit when people are talking about street-feeding the homeless. She was highly motivated to do something about her life. because of her kid, and didn't need much pushing to get onto a program.
a_c_s 12y ago
Do you have any insights as to why your friends don't take advantage of existing programs?
- webnrrd2k 12y ago
  Generally speaking, those that are likely to take advantage of various programs by themselves have already done so. They aren't a big secret or anything. A visit to the local Social Security office is about all it takes to get connected. Maybe the VA if your military. It can take a day or so, and be a real PITA, but nothing that's super hard to manage. So the people who don't get in these programs are mostly, for whatever reason,the types that don't want to go. It's hard to say, because it's an emotional thing, not a rational thing, but I think of it as two broad categories of resistance... I tend think of them as "structure" and "content"[1]. Some people have physical, structural problems with their brains -- they had a serious brain injury, a concussion, or stroke, or something; and they are functional enough to stay out of prison or not cause obvious problems, but their brain is shot or they just can't get themselves to focus for long enough to make any real headway with getting help on their own. I'd bet some just have ADHD, or some other organic/structural problem with their brain. Many of seem to have had a bad childhood, or a real bad experience at some point, and it left them feeling so poorly about themselves that they just expect the world to crap on them, like there is nothing they can do about it. They might descend into depression, or addiction, or spin off into some fantasy world, or deal with it in some other destructive way. I've noticed that the earlier things went wrong then the worse the effects seem to be, but this is strongly dependent on the person and what actually happened, and their current environment that it's hard to say anything useful. So that's how I think about it, but what I do is to try to gently push people in the direction of getting help and making their life better, sometimes hold their hands, and not worry too much about who it is or their current situation in life. Sometimes I'm better than others, and I'm better with some people than others, so I don't beat myself up if I can't really help. [1] Just to get a little philosophical - they aren't really separate, just a useful way of thinking about what's going on. I'm a Buddhist, and the structure/content idea helps me to see how my own mind works. For example, if I drink a lot of coffee and get really cranked up -- that's more of a physical/structural explanation of why I experience the world a certain way. If I have certain thoughts ("I'll never get this damn code right", or "my life is crap") then that leads me to experience the world a certain way -- neither mean the world actually is that way.

drez 12y ago

> They know that there are programs out there to help them, but they don't take advantage of them now. Making it illegal to give them food isn't going to somehow force them to get help. It'll just make it worse for the homeless. Are you sure? I'm not trying to attack your point, but what would happen if your homeless friends actually started taking advantage of these programs that are put in place to help them? Right now they don't need to because they are getting by on the kindness of others, but what if they had no other option but to go to these mental hospitals, homeless shelters, food banks, etc, where they could someday learn to take care of themselves and break the cycle? I think what you're doing shows how much of a loving and kind-hearted person you are, but try to consider the other side of the argument. This is an enormously hard problem (dating back thousands of years). We need a way to break the cycle, and the current status quo just isn't working.

bduerst 12y ago
That's a gross generalization, almost a false dichotomy. webnrrd2k's experience mirrors my past experiences, in that many homeless simply don't have the mental faculties to take care of themselves. This includes having enough sapience to seek out existing programs for help. Many will self medicate with illegal or stolen drugs, which only exasperates their situation. It's very easy to project ourselves into these situations and think "What would I do if I were homeless?", and assume that if you were lazy enough and taken care of you would probably stay homeless. The fact that you are even able to jump these mental hurdles and consider these situations is why you are not currently homeless.
webnrrd2k 12y ago
To help set the context, some, maybe most, of the homeless people I know have done some pretty stupid things, even committed serious crimes, but they aren't really like that now. The homeless people I know are generally the kinder, gentler types -- down on their luck musicians, artists, more intellectual types. I tend avoid anyone who is violent or "scammy". This is just my opinion, based my my limited experience. And homelessness is a big problem, so there will be a lot of different approaches. But I see it as primarily a problem of mental health. A lot of the homeless I know were abused, or came from shitty families, or had abusive parents, or any of a number of major childhood issues and their families didn't have the financial or emotional resources to do anything about it. So I tend to see "get tough on the homeless" programs as blaming the victim. I think that forcing people to go into any kind of program or shelter or whatever is just going to lead to resentment and more problems in the long run. Most shelters are pretty bad already, and that's with people who want to be there. Imagine how bad it'll be with people who really don't want to be there. I think it's important to keep people accountable -- E.g. Insist that if they want to be in a clean, decent shelter for three months and get meals then they need to make thrir bed, do dishes, go to group meeting daily and look for work, or see a doctor or psychiatrist, etc... What I think they really need is a long-term program for re-integrating into society, sort of like prisoners getting out, one that includes basics like a place to live for a year or two, health care, food, as well as psychological care and job training. Many will be helped by that, but not all. Hopefully, people from the local community or church or something will be involved as well. It's also important that there be a self-help group sort of like AA, but geared for the homeless, "homeless anonymous", where people could talk openly about their life and experiences and be with others who have been through similar things.
webnrrd2k 12y ago
You know, now that I think of it, I had a friend in college years ago who (previous to college) was a homeless single mom. She got on a program in California that paid her rent for a few years while she went to school. I'm not sure if it was part of Social Security or not, but I seem to remember it was a state program. I think there are better programs, in general, for single moms and/or abused women, but I don't know much about that. So she'd be an example of someone who took advantage of a program and was helped, but I don't think she's a good fit when people are talking about street-feeding the homeless. She was highly motivated to do something about her life. because of her kid, and didn't need much pushing to get onto a program.

a_c_s 12y ago

Do you have any insights as to why your friends don't take advantage of existing programs?

webnrrd2k 12y ago
Generally speaking, those that are likely to take advantage of various programs by themselves have already done so. They aren't a big secret or anything. A visit to the local Social Security office is about all it takes to get connected. Maybe the VA if your military. It can take a day or so, and be a real PITA, but nothing that's super hard to manage. So the people who don't get in these programs are mostly, for whatever reason,the types that don't want to go. It's hard to say, because it's an emotional thing, not a rational thing, but I think of it as two broad categories of resistance... I tend think of them as "structure" and "content"[1]. Some people have physical, structural problems with their brains -- they had a serious brain injury, a concussion, or stroke, or something; and they are functional enough to stay out of prison or not cause obvious problems, but their brain is shot or they just can't get themselves to focus for long enough to make any real headway with getting help on their own. I'd bet some just have ADHD, or some other organic/structural problem with their brain. Many of seem to have had a bad childhood, or a real bad experience at some point, and it left them feeling so poorly about themselves that they just expect the world to crap on them, like there is nothing they can do about it. They might descend into depression, or addiction, or spin off into some fantasy world, or deal with it in some other destructive way. I've noticed that the earlier things went wrong then the worse the effects seem to be, but this is strongly dependent on the person and what actually happened, and their current environment that it's hard to say anything useful. So that's how I think about it, but what I do is to try to gently push people in the direction of getting help and making their life better, sometimes hold their hands, and not worry too much about who it is or their current situation in life. Sometimes I'm better than others, and I'm better with some people than others, so I don't beat myself up if I can't really help. [1] Just to get a little philosophical - they aren't really separate, just a useful way of thinking about what's going on. I'm a Buddhist, and the structure/content idea helps me to see how my own mind works. For example, if I drink a lot of coffee and get really cranked up -- that's more of a physical/structural explanation of why I experience the world a certain way. If I have certain thoughts ("I'll never get this damn code right", or "my life is crap") then that leads me to experience the world a certain way -- neither mean the world actually is that way.