8 ms·

I love articles on this topic because they're uplifting and hopeful, I hate them because they are unrealistic. Y-Combinator's expectation for start-ups is that

by aresant 12y ago

I love articles on this topic because they're uplifting and hopeful, I hate them because they are unrealistic. Y-Combinator's expectation for start-ups is that they are to be "all-consuming" (1) From Sam Altman's "Before the Startup": "If you start a startup, it will take over your life to a degree you cannot imagine. And if your startup succeeds, it will take over your life for a long time: for several years at the very least, maybe for a decade, maybe for the rest of your working life. So there is a real opportunity cost here." In my personal experience start-ups are terrible for young families. If you expect to have a balanced-family-life and still also out-work / out-hustle 20-year olds or 40+ year olds (older kids) that are out for your blood you are setting yourself up for failure. I've been through this exact grind with young children born 18-months apart and you are FORCED to choose. That uninterruptable family dinner? Wait until an investor flys in to SFO unexpectedly and wants to go out on the town. Being around for more of the "little things”? Wait until you are forced to marginalize the importance of being there on your kid's actual "birthday" because heck, you'll be at the birthday party this weekend and you need to be in Dallas for a sales meeting. I am writing those two anecdotes from my own personal experience. Working up on start-up #XX with plenty of success under my belt, pre-set expectations that I'm going to do this "balance" now, etc. It's unrealistic, and I have been forced to choose my start-up and my team over my family to succeed, and it sucks. But that's my path, and that of many others here. I have incredible respect for anybody juggling y-combinator, a working spouse, and two kids. But you have to be made of steel to undertake this path and look at the sacrifices you will make as a husband and father in the eye. (1) http://www.paulgraham.com/before.html http://www.paulgraham.com/before.html

tadmilbourn 12y ago
That's the struggle. And, you've called it out precisely. There will be some extremely tough choices. Hopefully it doesn't come to a choice where the business is at risk due to a family decision (or vice versa). But, you've got to stay mindful of that fact. That's why I liked the juggling "Rubber" or "Glass" balls metaphor from my previous CEO.
- aresant 12y ago
  I get it. And my experience is my own. As others have said in this thread "I could have made other choices" But when you are way down the river, playing with other people's money, and with dozens of employees counting on you these "choices" starts feeling like foregone conclusions. If you want to be a start-up guy, if you want to build a large business, prepare yourself for the realities that are going to come with that. I have been lucky enough to change my situation over the past 2-years, but there would be no business today to "hire sales guys" etc if I hadn't done the work myself when it counted.
mattmanser 12y ago
The examples you gave were your choices. They weren't "shit the server's gone down" moments. You could have said you were busy that day to either of them. For the 2nd one you even could have hired another sales guy and you wouldn't have even been in that situation. But you didn't. And in the end, this guy's got a time tracking/invoicing app he sells to small businesses, his scenario is completely different. I don't want to be too dismissive, but it seems more suited for the Amy Hoy/patio11 route rather than the YC one, it's not a pants on fire, runaway scaling startup.
- tadmilbourn 12y ago
  You're right. Those were my choices. Fortunately, over the past few months, the servers have stayed up and my daughter hasn't had a need to go to the hospital. Those are holy shit moments. But most of life is lived in a more mundane day-to-day way. Those days are filled with your choices about where and how you spend your time. I wrote this post to detail how I go about making these decisions because I know there are others out there in a similar position. Just hearing another perspective is helpful. Someone just pointed me to this post from Change.org's COO and I greatly appreciated her take: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/article/20141022041002-407452-work-life-balance-is-bull https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/article/20141022041002-407452... On the scalable startup or not...we wouldn't have gotten into YC if we didn't have a plan.
  - startup_life_ 12y ago
    I really appreciate this article and the way you've handled some of these comments. My wife is expecting our first child soon and one thing it has really done is change my perspective. I've actually become a more dedicated employee and have also realized the glass and rubber ball metaphors. There's bugs that have to be fixed right now and projects that have to be completed on time -- but there's also a personal life. I'm no longer killing myself because of some minor bug that can wait, but at the same time I'm finding that when I am "on," I'm actually "on" instead of the half-on all the time. It's been a life changing experience and it's very hard to describe in an understandable way to people who haven't gone through it, but this article is coming close.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
trcollinson 12y ago
We get into a mindset that this is the only way to start a business, particularly in technology. And while I think you have touched on a number of good points, as did the original poster, I think we need to come back to the reality that businesses have been started for a long time in many different ways. My father, grandfather, great grandfather, and great great grandfather have all been in business, they have all started them in different ways and in different industries. "If you start a startup, it will take over your life to a degree you cannot imagine." That is a strong and hyperbolic statement. In fact, with all respect to Sam Altman, his entire statement is quite hyperbolic. Can a business take over your life? Absolutely not! Can you allow a business to take over your like? Absolutely! I have been involved in and started a number of successful businesses. I am also actively involved in my marriage (I have had exactly 1 wife, we've been together for just a bit). I have 6 kids. I go to birthday parties, soccer games, teachers meetings, and camp outs. I even volunteer at the schools. What happens when someone wants to schedule a meeting when my wife has dinner ready? I tell them to move it. What happens when an investor flies in and wants me to take them out for a night on the town when it's the choir performance night at the elementary school? I tell them I can't. Have I had investors leave me because I would not play their social games? Absolutely! And I was glad that I didn't have to deal with them again. Now, have I missed things? Yes. But I have gotten pretty good at looking at a schedule and planning around things. I want a close personal relationship with my wife and kids, so I have made that my priority. When people ask me how I do it, I tell them honestly. I am the CEO/CTO/CIO, I make the rules for me. I am not a slave to my company nor its success.
- AndrewKemendo 12y ago
  All great points, but you are also missing the context. Altman and PG and Andreesen aren't talking about starting businesses that are generally sustainable or considered "lifestyle." They are specifically and narrowly focused on trying to build $1BN+ dollar companies that have insane growth rates in competitive markets. You can't "miss things" in that context - especially strategic investments - because they will be picked up by competitors who will "out hustle" you. I feel like the YC folks either haven't done a good enough job clarifying that they don't speak for "all businesses generally" or the community is assuming that they are.
phillmv 12y ago
That's a shit sandwich, though. It sounds incredibly self-serving for VCs to be pushing that cultural expectation. It sounds out-right unhealthy. It sounds like a great after-the-fact excuse to make workaholics feel less bad. I know it's hyper competitive landscape out there, but it's unreasonable. If Mark Zuckerberg found a way to learn Mandarin, then the rest of us should be able to go home at a reasonable hour.
- astrocat 12y ago
  Completely agree that VCs and others should not be pushing for this to be the norm. Not only because it's unhealthy but also because it discourages a talented and mature group of people from attempting to create great things. I kind of wonder if the current startup scene of chatty app clones and services for asshats etc. is partially a result of the startup landscape being oversaturated with individuals who meet the young, kidless and immature crowd precisely because they're the only ones who are perceived as being capable to "give what it takes" to start a startup...
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    For VC backed companies it is the norm. It's up to you to decide if you want that kind of pressure or not.
vqc 12y ago
Do you think that there is something fundamentally different between doing a start-up and the various other high-stress, all consuming industries (e.g. big law, finance, medical residency)? In all of these industries, the narrative is that work is all consuming. Clients are non-stop and demanding. Work is 24/7. Work makes you miss birthdays, dinners, holidays, vacations. But ultimately, in all of these industries there are plenty (maybe not a lot) of highly successful people with kids and significant others who could say nothing other than "my big law/finance/doctor significant other can be described as nothing more than the perfect significant other/parent". I think there are lots of things that affect the quality of a relationship, celebrating birthdays and showing up for holidays are likely not high on the list.
- tadmilbourn 12y ago
  I'd say that the other high-stress industries cause a similar dynamic. Work/Family pressure is not exclusive to startups or tech startups or however you want to label it. But, the one difference I'd call out with doing a startup (or owning any small business), is that you're responsible for whether that business fails or not and any of the jobs that are attached to it. So you feel an intense responsibility to those other coworkers and their families. You also have this if you're a manager in a larger company, but I think the intensity with which you feel it is a lesser degree (you messing up is still not good, but the company may still survive).
  - kevinskii 12y ago
    Being a tech startup CEO is heavily over-romanticized. If the business fails your employees will likely soon go on to find other jobs, probably at a higher salary. It's not hard to think of other common jobs which are much more critical and stressful.
  - dquail 12y ago
    If you're a startup CEO and you fail, employees find other jobs. If you're a physician and you fail, people die.
    - 12y ago
turar 12y ago
Another good take on a similar situation: http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/07/why-pepsico-ceo-indra-k-nooyi-cant-have-it-all/373750/ http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/07/why-peps...
clarebear 12y ago
You have correctly identified tradeoffs. All of life has them, but having a family brings many of them into focus. Each person has to decide what works for them and their family. I'm glad that people are starting to talk about this plainly and openly.
rosser 12y ago
You did every single one of those things to yourself. In each of those situations, you had a choice, and you made it. "Startup culture" isn't to blame. YC isn't to blame. Investors and sales meetings aren't to blame. You are. You decided your business was more important than your family. And maybe it was. I wasn't there; I can't say. Please understand, I'm not moralizing here. I'm not saying you were wrong. I'm aware there are consequences to any of the choices one might make in these situations. I'm merely pointing out the demonstrable fact, by virtue of your self-reported behavior, that you chose your business over your family in each of these cases you're lamenting. Own it. Don't point at something else, all, "But that thing over there." You made a choice that was unequivocally yours and yours alone to make.
- tadmilbourn 12y ago
  Thanks Rosser. To be clear, I didn't feel I was blaming or lamenting anything. My point with the article was to share "these are my choices and how I made them." Some favored the business, others favored the family. Each person should decide what they feel is best for their situation and understand the tradeoffs their making.
  - rosser 12y ago
    I got no sense of blaming or lamenting from your article at all, Tad. I read exactly what you intended in it: "Here are the choices I made, and how and why I chose the way I did." My comment was directed at its parent.
chuckcode 12y ago
As a new dad with a busy job I've found the pain point balancing work/family to be crises that occur semi regularly like kid sick and can't go to childcare, major bug discovered prior to launch, etc. As Tad notes the planned obligations can be managed to balance your personal choice of importance between family and career, but for me in practice it is the unexpected or urgent that can upset that balance. Balancing things that are urgent now vs things that are important is very difficult in practice. Long term having a good relationship with your spouse and kids is much more important than fixing that bug for customer, but that bug may be very urgent so you stay later to fix it tonight. Trying to keep the urgent from trumping the important in the priority queue is a constant challenge in my life as I now have more important things. I completely agree with Tad on the over communicating. The only other things I have found helpful are to: 1) Set expectations realistically - people can be ecstatic or completely disappointed with the same result depending on what you tell them to expect. 2) I don't scale very well, focus on measuring metrics rather than micromanaging and then delegate to others.
- tadmilbourn 12y ago
  Fantastic additions. Urgent vs. Important is a great framework.
  - chuckcode 12y ago
    Thanks, best of luck to us all balancing in a world that is all about maximizing.
BinaryIdiot 12y ago
> If you expect to have a balanced-family-life and still also out-work / out-hustle 20-year olds or 40+ year olds (older kids) that are out for your blood you are setting yourself up for failure. This seems to imply the only way to out work 20 or 40 year olds is with time and because of your family you won't have time but that's not true. Hard work is only part of it. It sucks in your situation you had to chose and sacrifice your family but I do not believe that has to be typical of all Y Combinator applicants.
darklajid 12y ago
I love these kind of articles, period. As a dad (son just turned two, daughter's 8 month old) in a similar situation, family wise, it's nice to read about other people being successful (and less risk averse..) in their professional life. Granted, your story sounds more realistic. That's what I think whenever the 'Could I do something like this' wish comes up. But for now I'll choose to believe that Tad can make it work. Both for him and because I'd love to be able to do the same thing..
pond_lilly 12y ago
The solution no one talks about, is to stop breeding. Having 1 kid in today's day and age is bad, having 2 is criminal.
smrtinsert 12y ago
What matters most is that he attempted it and shares his experience with the community. The United States has a severe problem with life vs. profession, and it would do a lot of good to push towards the former. Right now it's taboo and maybe in some circles laughable to attempt to raise a family while starting a company. Hopefully in generations to come, it won't be. I was inpsired by his story.

by aresant 12y ago

tadmilbourn 12y ago

That's the struggle. And, you've called it out precisely. There will be some extremely tough choices. Hopefully it doesn't come to a choice where the business is at risk due to a family decision (or vice versa). But, you've got to stay mindful of that fact. That's why I liked the juggling "Rubber" or "Glass" balls metaphor from my previous CEO.

aresant 12y ago
I get it. And my experience is my own. As others have said in this thread "I could have made other choices" But when you are way down the river, playing with other people's money, and with dozens of employees counting on you these "choices" starts feeling like foregone conclusions. If you want to be a start-up guy, if you want to build a large business, prepare yourself for the realities that are going to come with that. I have been lucky enough to change my situation over the past 2-years, but there would be no business today to "hire sales guys" etc if I hadn't done the work myself when it counted.

mattmanser 12y ago

The examples you gave were your choices. They weren't "shit the server's gone down" moments. You could have said you were busy that day to either of them. For the 2nd one you even could have hired another sales guy and you wouldn't have even been in that situation. But you didn't. And in the end, this guy's got a time tracking/invoicing app he sells to small businesses, his scenario is completely different. I don't want to be too dismissive, but it seems more suited for the Amy Hoy/patio11 route rather than the YC one, it's not a pants on fire, runaway scaling startup.

tadmilbourn 12y ago
You're right. Those were my choices. Fortunately, over the past few months, the servers have stayed up and my daughter hasn't had a need to go to the hospital. Those are holy shit moments. But most of life is lived in a more mundane day-to-day way. Those days are filled with your choices about where and how you spend your time. I wrote this post to detail how I go about making these decisions because I know there are others out there in a similar position. Just hearing another perspective is helpful. Someone just pointed me to this post from Change.org's COO and I greatly appreciated her take: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/article/20141022041002-407452-work-life-balance-is-bull https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/article/20141022041002-407452... On the scalable startup or not...we wouldn't have gotten into YC if we didn't have a plan.
- startup_life_ 12y ago
  I really appreciate this article and the way you've handled some of these comments. My wife is expecting our first child soon and one thing it has really done is change my perspective. I've actually become a more dedicated employee and have also realized the glass and rubber ball metaphors. There's bugs that have to be fixed right now and projects that have to be completed on time -- but there's also a personal life. I'm no longer killing myself because of some minor bug that can wait, but at the same time I'm finding that when I am "on," I'm actually "on" instead of the half-on all the time. It's been a life changing experience and it's very hard to describe in an understandable way to people who haven't gone through it, but this article is coming close.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

trcollinson 12y ago

We get into a mindset that this is the only way to start a business, particularly in technology. And while I think you have touched on a number of good points, as did the original poster, I think we need to come back to the reality that businesses have been started for a long time in many different ways. My father, grandfather, great grandfather, and great great grandfather have all been in business, they have all started them in different ways and in different industries. "If you start a startup, it will take over your life to a degree you cannot imagine." That is a strong and hyperbolic statement. In fact, with all respect to Sam Altman, his entire statement is quite hyperbolic. Can a business take over your life? Absolutely not! Can you allow a business to take over your like? Absolutely! I have been involved in and started a number of successful businesses. I am also actively involved in my marriage (I have had exactly 1 wife, we've been together for just a bit). I have 6 kids. I go to birthday parties, soccer games, teachers meetings, and camp outs. I even volunteer at the schools. What happens when someone wants to schedule a meeting when my wife has dinner ready? I tell them to move it. What happens when an investor flies in and wants me to take them out for a night on the town when it's the choir performance night at the elementary school? I tell them I can't. Have I had investors leave me because I would not play their social games? Absolutely! And I was glad that I didn't have to deal with them again. Now, have I missed things? Yes. But I have gotten pretty good at looking at a schedule and planning around things. I want a close personal relationship with my wife and kids, so I have made that my priority. When people ask me how I do it, I tell them honestly. I am the CEO/CTO/CIO, I make the rules for me. I am not a slave to my company nor its success.

AndrewKemendo 12y ago
All great points, but you are also missing the context. Altman and PG and Andreesen aren't talking about starting businesses that are generally sustainable or considered "lifestyle." They are specifically and narrowly focused on trying to build $1BN+ dollar companies that have insane growth rates in competitive markets. You can't "miss things" in that context - especially strategic investments - because they will be picked up by competitors who will "out hustle" you. I feel like the YC folks either haven't done a good enough job clarifying that they don't speak for "all businesses generally" or the community is assuming that they are.

phillmv 12y ago

That's a shit sandwich, though. It sounds incredibly self-serving for VCs to be pushing that cultural expectation. It sounds out-right unhealthy. It sounds like a great after-the-fact excuse to make workaholics feel less bad. I know it's hyper competitive landscape out there, but it's unreasonable. If Mark Zuckerberg found a way to learn Mandarin, then the rest of us should be able to go home at a reasonable hour.

astrocat 12y ago
Completely agree that VCs and others should not be pushing for this to be the norm. Not only because it's unhealthy but also because it discourages a talented and mature group of people from attempting to create great things. I kind of wonder if the current startup scene of chatty app clones and services for asshats etc. is partially a result of the startup landscape being oversaturated with individuals who meet the young, kidless and immature crowd precisely because they're the only ones who are perceived as being capable to "give what it takes" to start a startup...
- jacquesm 12y ago
  For VC backed companies it is the norm. It's up to you to decide if you want that kind of pressure or not.

vqc 12y ago

Do you think that there is something fundamentally different between doing a start-up and the various other high-stress, all consuming industries (e.g. big law, finance, medical residency)? In all of these industries, the narrative is that work is all consuming. Clients are non-stop and demanding. Work is 24/7. Work makes you miss birthdays, dinners, holidays, vacations. But ultimately, in all of these industries there are plenty (maybe not a lot) of highly successful people with kids and significant others who could say nothing other than "my big law/finance/doctor significant other can be described as nothing more than the perfect significant other/parent". I think there are lots of things that affect the quality of a relationship, celebrating birthdays and showing up for holidays are likely not high on the list.

tadmilbourn 12y ago
I'd say that the other high-stress industries cause a similar dynamic. Work/Family pressure is not exclusive to startups or tech startups or however you want to label it. But, the one difference I'd call out with doing a startup (or owning any small business), is that you're responsible for whether that business fails or not and any of the jobs that are attached to it. So you feel an intense responsibility to those other coworkers and their families. You also have this if you're a manager in a larger company, but I think the intensity with which you feel it is a lesser degree (you messing up is still not good, but the company may still survive).
- kevinskii 12y ago
  Being a tech startup CEO is heavily over-romanticized. If the business fails your employees will likely soon go on to find other jobs, probably at a higher salary. It's not hard to think of other common jobs which are much more critical and stressful.
- dquail 12y ago
  If you're a startup CEO and you fail, employees find other jobs. If you're a physician and you fail, people die.
  - 12y ago

turar 12y ago

Another good take on a similar situation: http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/07/why-pepsico-ceo-indra-k-nooyi-cant-have-it-all/373750/ http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/07/why-peps...

clarebear 12y ago

You have correctly identified tradeoffs. All of life has them, but having a family brings many of them into focus. Each person has to decide what works for them and their family. I'm glad that people are starting to talk about this plainly and openly.

rosser 12y ago

You did every single one of those things to yourself. In each of those situations, you had a choice, and you made it. "Startup culture" isn't to blame. YC isn't to blame. Investors and sales meetings aren't to blame. You are. You decided your business was more important than your family. And maybe it was. I wasn't there; I can't say. Please understand, I'm not moralizing here. I'm not saying you were wrong. I'm aware there are consequences to any of the choices one might make in these situations. I'm merely pointing out the demonstrable fact, by virtue of your self-reported behavior, that you chose your business over your family in each of these cases you're lamenting. Own it. Don't point at something else, all, "But that thing over there." You made a choice that was unequivocally yours and yours alone to make.

tadmilbourn 12y ago
Thanks Rosser. To be clear, I didn't feel I was blaming or lamenting anything. My point with the article was to share "these are my choices and how I made them." Some favored the business, others favored the family. Each person should decide what they feel is best for their situation and understand the tradeoffs their making.
- rosser 12y ago
  I got no sense of blaming or lamenting from your article at all, Tad. I read exactly what you intended in it: "Here are the choices I made, and how and why I chose the way I did." My comment was directed at its parent.

chuckcode 12y ago

As a new dad with a busy job I've found the pain point balancing work/family to be crises that occur semi regularly like kid sick and can't go to childcare, major bug discovered prior to launch, etc. As Tad notes the planned obligations can be managed to balance your personal choice of importance between family and career, but for me in practice it is the unexpected or urgent that can upset that balance. Balancing things that are urgent now vs things that are important is very difficult in practice. Long term having a good relationship with your spouse and kids is much more important than fixing that bug for customer, but that bug may be very urgent so you stay later to fix it tonight. Trying to keep the urgent from trumping the important in the priority queue is a constant challenge in my life as I now have more important things. I completely agree with Tad on the over communicating. The only other things I have found helpful are to: 1) Set expectations realistically - people can be ecstatic or completely disappointed with the same result depending on what you tell them to expect. 2) I don't scale very well, focus on measuring metrics rather than micromanaging and then delegate to others.

tadmilbourn 12y ago
Fantastic additions. Urgent vs. Important is a great framework.
- chuckcode 12y ago
  Thanks, best of luck to us all balancing in a world that is all about maximizing.

BinaryIdiot 12y ago

> If you expect to have a balanced-family-life and still also out-work / out-hustle 20-year olds or 40+ year olds (older kids) that are out for your blood you are setting yourself up for failure. This seems to imply the only way to out work 20 or 40 year olds is with time and because of your family you won't have time but that's not true. Hard work is only part of it. It sucks in your situation you had to chose and sacrifice your family but I do not believe that has to be typical of all Y Combinator applicants.

darklajid 12y ago

I love these kind of articles, period. As a dad (son just turned two, daughter's 8 month old) in a similar situation, family wise, it's nice to read about other people being successful (and less risk averse..) in their professional life. Granted, your story sounds more realistic. That's what I think whenever the 'Could I do something like this' wish comes up. But for now I'll choose to believe that Tad can make it work. Both for him and because I'd love to be able to do the same thing..

pond_lilly 12y ago

The solution no one talks about, is to stop breeding. Having 1 kid in today's day and age is bad, having 2 is criminal.

smrtinsert 12y ago

What matters most is that he attempted it and shares his experience with the community. The United States has a severe problem with life vs. profession, and it would do a lot of good to push towards the former. Right now it's taboo and maybe in some circles laughable to attempt to raise a family while starting a company. Hopefully in generations to come, it won't be. I was inpsired by his story.