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The Vatican is really a amazing piece of history in and of itself. Despite how you may personally feel about its religion, or the effects of it on the world. Th

The Vatican is really a amazing piece of history in and of itself. Despite how you may personally feel about its religion, or the effects of it on the world. The enlightened western world we live in today would not exist without it, and without all the knowledge, art, and culture it (and its local branches) preserved for ~1000+ years.

netcan 12y ago
Well… That's true of any strong and long lasting institutions. Incidentally, many of the ancient documents in those archives were copied into it during the renaissance after surviving for hundreds of years in the Muslim-Arab world. The Hebrew document in that article (I think 'Supplement to The Torah' is a decent translation) by Maimonides is a great example. Maimonades was a Jewish Scholar who lived in Spain (during the Muslim period), Morocco & Egypt. He can (and is) claimed by Arabs, Jews & the Helenic culture of the middle ages. If you think in terms of 'The Flame of Western Civilization' he was part of the movement that carried that flame for a few hundred years before it was carried back to Christendom during the Renaissance. You could also make the argument that European Christianity joins Western culture during the Renaissance. But certainly, the Vatican is an incredible influence on Western culture, good, bad or odd.
- huxley 12y ago
  Though forgotten by pretty everyone who doesn't study Medieval history, the Muslim scholar Averroës (Abū l-Walīd Muḥammad Ibn ʾAḥmad Ibn Rušd) was perhaps the single most significant figure, influencing all medieval scholars including Maimonides. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Averroes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Averroes "Famous scholastics such as Aquinas believed [Averroës] to be so important they did not refer to him by name, simply calling him 'The Commentator' and calling Aristotle 'The Philosopher.'"
  - dbdr 12y ago
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119629/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119629/ I saw this film a long time ago, and as I remember it was enjoyable and inspiring, so I recommend it as an easy to watch introduction on this topic and era.
- 23david 12y ago
  Found some references: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maimonides http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mishneh_Torah http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/682956/jewish/Mishneh-Torah.htm Although it's great fodder for movies and ppl into conspiracy theories, getting an audited list of all the Vatican books/artifacts tucked away (and then digitizing everything) would be amazing to see in our lifetime. The really really old stuff inherited from the Roman Empire days would be of particular interest. Not too many secret ancient libraries left these days...
riffraff 12y ago
not only preservation either: a ton of scholars were catholic priests[0], the "obscurantist church" is a rather recent meme. [0] i.e. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Catholic_scientists http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Catholic_scientists
- coliveira 12y ago
  Until a few centuries ago everyone in the western world was a catholic, so this doesn't mean much. It is not because of the church that great things were made, but in spite of it.
- toyg 12y ago
  Well, for several centuries, to be a scholar you had to be a priest or monk. There were no educational institutions who could pay you money, and support from rulers (as well as rulers themselves) could come and go on a whim. So if you wanted a "career" in research (i.e. you were a smart and curious fellow who could read) the Church was your only choice. This, of course, gave the Church the power to set the cultural and research agenda, and many bad decisions were taken with that power (as well as many good ones, of course), hence the "obscurantist" label. Also, burning one at the stake when you disagree with his theory of the universe is a bit harsh, you'll agree.
  - riffraff 12y ago
    I do agree, but I meant that for a very long time science was not considered to be in contrast with faith.
contingencies 12y ago
That last claim is a bit rich: as center of hierarchical monotheism during an expansionist era they sure did a good job of sponsoring the destruction of the Meso-American cultures - the fact they're now accepting donations to share digital copies of some of the stuff they secreted does not really let them pass the buck.

netcan 12y ago

Well… That's true of any strong and long lasting institutions. Incidentally, many of the ancient documents in those archives were copied into it during the renaissance after surviving for hundreds of years in the Muslim-Arab world. The Hebrew document in that article (I think 'Supplement to The Torah' is a decent translation) by Maimonides is a great example. Maimonades was a Jewish Scholar who lived in Spain (during the Muslim period), Morocco & Egypt. He can (and is) claimed by Arabs, Jews & the Helenic culture of the middle ages. If you think in terms of 'The Flame of Western Civilization' he was part of the movement that carried that flame for a few hundred years before it was carried back to Christendom during the Renaissance. You could also make the argument that European Christianity joins Western culture during the Renaissance. But certainly, the Vatican is an incredible influence on Western culture, good, bad or odd.

huxley 12y ago
Though forgotten by pretty everyone who doesn't study Medieval history, the Muslim scholar Averroës (Abū l-Walīd Muḥammad Ibn ʾAḥmad Ibn Rušd) was perhaps the single most significant figure, influencing all medieval scholars including Maimonides. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Averroes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Averroes "Famous scholastics such as Aquinas believed [Averroës] to be so important they did not refer to him by name, simply calling him 'The Commentator' and calling Aristotle 'The Philosopher.'"
- dbdr 12y ago
  http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119629/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119629/ I saw this film a long time ago, and as I remember it was enjoyable and inspiring, so I recommend it as an easy to watch introduction on this topic and era.
23david 12y ago
Found some references: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maimonides http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mishneh_Torah http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/682956/jewish/Mishneh-Torah.htm Although it's great fodder for movies and ppl into conspiracy theories, getting an audited list of all the Vatican books/artifacts tucked away (and then digitizing everything) would be amazing to see in our lifetime. The really really old stuff inherited from the Roman Empire days would be of particular interest. Not too many secret ancient libraries left these days...

riffraff 12y ago

not only preservation either: a ton of scholars were catholic priests[0], the "obscurantist church" is a rather recent meme. [0] i.e. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Catholic_scientists http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Catholic_scientists

coliveira 12y ago
Until a few centuries ago everyone in the western world was a catholic, so this doesn't mean much. It is not because of the church that great things were made, but in spite of it.
toyg 12y ago
Well, for several centuries, to be a scholar you had to be a priest or monk. There were no educational institutions who could pay you money, and support from rulers (as well as rulers themselves) could come and go on a whim. So if you wanted a "career" in research (i.e. you were a smart and curious fellow who could read) the Church was your only choice. This, of course, gave the Church the power to set the cultural and research agenda, and many bad decisions were taken with that power (as well as many good ones, of course), hence the "obscurantist" label. Also, burning one at the stake when you disagree with his theory of the universe is a bit harsh, you'll agree.
- riffraff 12y ago
  I do agree, but I meant that for a very long time science was not considered to be in contrast with faith.

contingencies 12y ago

That last claim is a bit rich: as center of hierarchical monotheism during an expansionist era they sure did a good job of sponsoring the destruction of the Meso-American cultures - the fact they're now accepting donations to share digital copies of some of the stuff they secreted does not really let them pass the buck.