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Bay Area tech company caught paying imported workers $1.21 per hour
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- hankhill 12y agoLiterally the first line in the article states the name of the company. Come on.
- autism_hurts 12y ago~hacker news "moderating"~ strikes again
- Karunamon 12y agoNaming the location of a business is "inflammatory" now? WTF? They did name it in the very first paragraph of the article: Ever heard of Electronics for Imaging? We hadn't either until this morning, but it's apparently a multimillion dollar, multinational, public corporation based out of Fremont, California.
- untog 12y ago"Bay Area tech company" tells me: - this is a tech company - they are based in the Bay Area If they'd used "Electronics for Imaging", I would know: - there is a company called Electronics for Imaging Sure, if it was Facebook, they could just use the name. But not in this instance.
- general_failure 12y agoThere are gazillion scam companies like this in the bay area. So many indians are exploited thanks for the H4 situation.
- defen 12y agoCan you explain that further? A quick search suggests that H4 holders are not legally entitled to work in the US.
- general_failure 12y agoThat is exactly the problem. We have so many H4 holders (spouses of H1 holders) in the bay area. These H4 spouses are desperate for something to do (literally every other H1 household) and there are MANY companies that promise the H4 holder to get a H1 the next year and make them work for free even .
- abraham_s 12y agoIsn't that illegal?. The H4 can't work (even part-time) until they have a H1 in hand.
- general_failure 12y agoYes, it is illegal but also common. (The article also talks about something illegal but that doesn't stop it from happening and is quite common).
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- hnnewguy 12y ago>"We unintentionally overlooked laws that require even foreign employees to be paid based on local US standards." I hope that readers keep incidents like this is mind. There's a tendency to pile on in populist fashion against the "bankers", the "lobbyists" and the "politicians". In reality, the "tech" world is just as dirty. Peoples is peoples.
- throwaway1979 12y agoI wonder about the ethics of a related scenario ... get a remote person to login to machines to do installs and manage. In this case, the remote person gets paid in Rs but I guess that is okay since their cost of living is in Rs (not in the case of the story, obviously)? IANAL
- jasonisalive 12y agoPlease try not to ask such difficult questions. It takes some serious mental gymnastics to justify and endorse all the various restrictions of free contract and conduct legislated under the name of social justice - it's really not kind to point out these uncomfortable contradictions.
- raverbashing 12y ago"Peoples is peoples" People are people (people is plural in this case)
- moonka 12y ago>EFI was charged $3,500 -- yes, seriously -- for being at fault. It's ok, they have been punished, and I'm sure they'll never do this again.
- mikeryan 12y agoIn general in the US when it comes to wage and hour employment issues there is not a lot of punitive punishment handed out. The general relief is to be paid what you were supposed to be paid (the $40k in this case).
- jasonisalive 12y agoGood on them! State mandated minimum wages are socialist bullshit. Might as well have minimum potato prices while you're at it.
- autism_hurts 12y agoTrolllolololol?
- fauigerzigerk 12y agoThere are also state mandated immigration laws that prevent those indian workers from offering their services on a level playing field. That company is basically using the state as a tool for their extortionate practices. I don't see how that is "good on them" even by the most libertarian of standards.
- jasonisalive 12y agoIf your concern is that the company is taking advantage of the paralegal environment to exploit these workers, you should be as against these ridiculous laws as me. The market will find the correct price for goods, criminalisation simply creates a legal and social vacuum for all transactions below the mandated minimum sale price, encouraging perverse and destructive behaviours. The minimum wage laws do not prevent exploitation, they encourage it. Edit: I would not be surprised if the people who are downvoting me now have never worked a minimum wage job. They might be interested to know that I have, and indeed currently do work minimum wage in my country. My first-hand experience has only confirmed my total opposition to the practice. Of course, it's a lot easier to downvote than actually engage an opposing opinion in debate :)
- fauigerzigerk 12y ago>If your concern is that the company is taking advantage of the paralegal environment to exploit these workers, you should be as against these ridiculous laws as me. I am opposed to all immigration laws as a matter of principle. Immigration laws violate a fundamental democratic principle, which is that laws should affect those who have a say in making them. Laws made by insiders that only affect outsiders _and_ govern that exact same insider/outsider status have no democratic legitimacy whatsoever. Immigration laws are also a severe distortion of markets. They are the worst form of protectionism because they protect the (relatively) rich against having to compete against the poor. However, for me, markets are tools and just as every other tool they are imperfect. They don't replace goals or values, they are not equivalent to freedom, they represent but one particular freedom of many. Markets simply don't cover everything it means to be human. If markets fail to achieve one of my goals, then I will look for other tools to fix that. One of my fundamental values is that poverty is wrong in a world that is capable of providing food, shelter, education and healthcare for everyone. Markets don't fix that on their own, but in this particular case, more market would have helped those indian workers to protect themselves against a company that used immigration laws to exploit them. (Another one of my convictions is that downvoting is a ridiculous way of having a debate)
- seldo 12y agoOver what period does this law apply? If you are a multinational and you bring workers over for a two-week training course, do you have to give them a raise for those two weeks?
- jrochkind1 12y agoI suspect you do, legally, if you're otherwise paying them less than minimum wage, and they are your employees. Although i'm no lawyer. It is probably unusual for companies to bring people getting paid less than U.S. minimum wage to the U.S. for a two-week training course. Why would you spend so much money (travel? hotel? they're staying in your basement?) on workers you're paying less than minimum wage?
- varikin 12y agoThis was sort of regular at a past job of mine. We have offices in India, China, Japan, and different parts of Europe. We frequently sent people to India and China to give training, especially when building out a new office or department. Occasionally, we would fly someone here (the US). Not so much for training but more to meet the the team. With the caveat that I am not a lawyer or accountant, I would expect (but since when are laws reasonable) that if the person flown to the US doing so for a short time period and moving to the US, their pay would not need to change. But I could be very very wrong.
- maxerickson 12y agoUndocumented workers have been granted protection under federal law: http://flsaovertimelaw.com/tag/undocumented-immigrants/ http://flsaovertimelaw.com/tag/undocumented-immigrants/ The decision went to the text of the Federal Labor Standards Act and decided that it had a very broad definition of employee. I wouldn't expect narrower decisions for companies flying people around for training. For $200 a week, and given the narrow availability of visiting worker visas, it doesn't seem like it will come up very often.
- lotsofmangos 12y agoIf you have some of your workers from a much poorer country brought over on business, then you should definitely give them higher pay for the trip even if the law says you do not have to, otherwise the business trip is effectively a punishment that leaves them out of pocket should they wish to do something normal like go out to a restaurant.
- autism_hurts 12y agoDoesn't surprise me that this was in Fremont, California at all.
- Alupis 12y agoFreemont has some of the cheapest, and best bandwidth on the West Coast. Hurricane Electric has 2 data centers there, one of which is a major ipv6 hub for the world. It also happens to be one of the most active WISP communities in California due to the close proximity of the mountains/hills behind it which overshadow the city. Makes for a great P2MP setup. There are indeed nice things in Freemont.
- ZanyProgrammer 12y agoFremont has a scammy for profit tech school, Northwestern Polytechnic, that always seemed a bit shady. I also once worked with a grad of that school, he was a very piss poor 'senior' engineer.
- Alupis 12y agoYou do realize these "scammy for profit tech school[s]" are everywhere? Just down the street from my workplace there is a "Tech Skills: School of Technology" which claims they will, for a hefty fee, beat anyone into sys admin shape. A company I used to work for sent me and another manager over to check them out for a possible "post-graduate" hiring process (the school wanted to guarantee X% rate of employment, and we wanted good trained employees). Needless to say, it didn't work out.
- simmons 12y agoDoesn't surprise me that this was in Fremont, California at all. Out of curiosity, why? (I don't know much about Fremont, other than staying there occasionally when I can't find a closer hotel to my Silicon Valley customers.)
- Domenic_S 12y agohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solyndra http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solyndra
- Alupis 12y agoSomething isn't quite right with this article. Engadget links to their "source", and their source doesn't link to anywhere they got the info from. They say the workers were allegedly working 120 hour work weeks... if my math serves me right, that is 5 straight days and nights without sleeping. I don't think that is humanly possible in a 7 day week, even under slave-driven conditions such as described in the article. Also, it sounds like, from the article, that the workers were hired as contract workers from India, then flown in to perform a contract. If that's the case, their pre-agreed wage in India would be fine imho, and easily confused with local laws (no intentional malicious intent), and perhaps why they weren't fined more heavily here in the US.
- jedberg 12y ago18 hours a day, 7 days a week. Typically only people who get paid high hourly rates (like lawyers) do it, but it is possible.
- jdcryans 12y agoBest I can tell, they have a presence in India: http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Employee-Review-EFI-RVW584414.htm http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Employee-Review-EFI-RVW5844... http://www.justdial.com/Bangalore/efi-india-pvt-ltd-%3Cnear%3E-Whitefield/080P5929934 http://www.justdial.com/Bangalore/efi-india-pvt-ltd-%3Cnear%... So my guess is that they are actual EFL, India, employees who are flown in for some time, probably on a tourist visa (I've seen that elsewhere), but still paid their normal salary while they work here. The truly exceptional situation here is that their salary happens to be so low it's below the minimum salary (edit for clarification: exceptional in that it also happens with employees whose salary is above the minimum, but then article would seem a lot less sensational).
- Alupis 12y ago> The truly exceptional situation here is that their salary happens to be so low it's below the minimum salary. Not in India it's not. In 120 hours at $1.21 per hour, these workers earned almost 9,000 rupees. While $1.21 doesn't sound like a lot here in the US, in India about 100 rupees will buy you a nice meal out. 400-600 rupees will buy you a hotel room for the night, etc. The dollar has a lot more buying power than the rupee. This is just to say, for a contract worker hired in India, these wages are "acceptable". I think it's likely the company didn't understand US law dictates that while the India workers are in the US, they must abide by US minimum wage laws (which would make for a substantial salary increase for these workers). I think it's more likely they didn't understand the law fully rather than malicious intent. The workers were after-all, temporary and were not going to be staying in the US permanently. This would coincide with the symbolic fine of $3,500 plus wages-due.
- ambrood 12y agoAnti immigration reform nativists from the south are no doubt going to use this to tar all the SV tech companies and H1Bs even if these poor schmucks weren't here on an H1.
- clarkmoody 12y agoThe word "reform" is too ambiguous. Please say what you mean.
- wil421 12y ago>Anti immigration reform nativists from the south Could you explain this a little better?
- eqdw 12y agoI dunno, there tends to be more than a fair share of anti-immigration nativists here who have some pretty loud megaphones. Apparently I came here and stole a job that could've gone to a hard-working American, after all. And the local media doesn't want to let me forget it
- umeshunni 12y ago$1.21/hr * 120 hrs * 52 weeks * 60₹/$ = ₹452000/year. That's probably on the lower end, at least for software engineers, even in India
- Alupis 12y agoAbout 500,000 rupees appears to be around the average for a software engineer in India. At least there are a lot of job postings offering in the range of 300,000 - 600,000 rupees.
- statictype 12y agoIts at the lower end for engineers - but 120 hours a week is absurd. If you use that hourly wage and assume a 10 hour work day, its very significantly less than what a developer would make in India.
- kamaal 12y ago452000 is a pretty decent salary for a fresher/upto-4-years experienced guys in India. That is what most companies will pay you. Of course if you are from an IIT or other big brand name college, you can milk your alumni network to get 4 times that in internet companies and funded start ups. Those are generally exceptions and not the norm. Most importantly the very opportunity to travel to US and work there would be so important to many people here, that they would agree to work in almost any conditions.
- bigtunacan 12y agoThey had to pay the owed pay of $40K, plus a $3500 fine. That spells out why these unethical creeps did this. The upside for them is pretty big. $40k savings at the low risk of paying a $3500 fine is huge upside. Wonder how much money they have "made" by doing this in the past when they didn't get caught? In order to stop companies from doing things like this the penalties need to be great enough that it outweighs the benefits. "Oh; you didn't pay those workers the $40k you owed them? Here's a $400k fine on top of it for the ten times prior where you probably got away with. Have a nice day."
- fleitz 12y agoThis is a good idea, life sentences for smoking pot in California have drastically reduced the incidence of pot smoking.
- mathattack 12y agoVery different. Corporations frequently think like this under the guise of duty to shareholders. Many do the right thing, but frequently they do a cost-benefit analysis against the damage from getting caught. Gary Becker (RIP) discusses this [0] on the 4th page of his Nobel lecture, using a simplified example of people parking illegally more often if it's cost effective to pay for the occasional ticket. [0] http://home.uchicago.edu/gbecker/Nobel/nobellecture.pdf http://home.uchicago.edu/gbecker/Nobel/nobellecture.pdf
- disposition2 12y agoAre you attempting to excuse the action?
- pavel_lishin 12y agoI believe he's explaining the reason corporations do this.
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- ef4 12y agoThere's something that's almost religious or magical about the way people understand national borders. Pay the workers $1.21/hour while they're on one side of an imaginary line, it's fine. On the other side of the line, it's despicable. Shouldn't the ethics be independent of the imaginary line? It's either wrong in both cases or right in both cases.
- trose 12y agoWell for one, the cost of living in India is insanely lower than the United States much less San Fran.
- ef4 12y agoNobody is contending that these workers had to go find apartments or pay for their own hotel rooms in San Francisco. If the company covered all their living expenses while they were here, the cost issue is a red herring.
- dsr_ 12y agoNo, it isn't. We don't place trust in corporations to bypass laws because they are taking care of their workers; we require corporations to follow laws in case they don't. What would happen to you if your company flew you to Mumbai, set you up in an apartment and arranged for you to go to an office, and then went bankrupt before they could get you home? You'd be responsible for airfare home, and that might or might not be a hardship for you. Now consider the opposite case, with people from India being paid $1.21 an hour in SF. Can they even afford airfare home? Unlikely.
- Domenic_S 12y agoYour comment displays a fundamental misunderstanding of wages. Wages in the amount of X support a lifestyle of Y quality. This is why a job that pays $150k in SV will pay something like $80k in, say, rural Idaho (if you can find the equivalent job). Typically Y stays constant for a job of a certain type, level, and country; X varies based on location/cost of living. Obviously this is greatly simplified. [Edit: in case it wasn't clear, my point is that 'imaginary lines' don't have anything to do with compensation levels - cost of living does.] I don't really know enough about EFI's situation to comment... if you have an entire branch of your company in India, and you bring some portion of your workers to the US for a week or two for some onsite work, do you pay them US wages or Indian wages? I truly don't know the answer to this. Likewise, if your company sends you to India for a week, do they pay you in Rupees?
- qwerta 12y agoArticle is missing many details. 8 workers with $40,000 in owed wages, thats about 1 months work. Now get some accountancy tricks and you get MANY possible scenarios. That 120 hour/weeks could be overtime they accumulated in India. Nobody here ever worked for $1/hour? Many people would love to do this, just to be in California for free for a few weeks (all expenses paid). Anyway, I just feel I should pass different opinion.
- genericresponse 12y agoI assume you're being sarcastic?
- qwerta 12y agoShould I be? Go to India for a few months, and ask again :-)
- genericresponse 12y agoI think you should be. Whether or not people in India want to work for $1/hr doesn't matter. A big reason the minimum wage exists to prevent the lowest wage occupations in the united states from falling into a prisoner's dilemma-style trap where the equilibrium is at or just below the amount needed to not starve. That said, I am sympathetic to the plight of those in developing countries.
- qwerta 12y agoI worked as salary accountant, I think big part of story is missing, and it is essentially click-bait. > dilemma-style trap where the equilibrium is at or just below the amount needed to not starve That ship had sailed long time ago. In California I would be more worried about housing cost and expenses in general. I bet many people would gladly accept $1/hour position which would cover insurance, rent (in real house), food, car.... Steve Jobs worked for $1/year! Ireland has strongly enforced minimal wage with long tradition, yet it surprisingly just does not work, even government is now forcing people to take unpaid positions.
- dsr_ 12y agoIn 2008, Massachusetts passed a law that mandates triple damages on employers who lose wage and hour lawsuits. The additional money is awarded to the employees. I highly recommend this approach: compliance in Massachusetts is extremely high.
- billmalarky 12y agoSeriously, if the only punishment is covering back pay when you get caught, where is the incentive to not pull these shenanigans?
- ef4 12y agoOne of the most positive political changes we could hope to see in the 21st century would be more free movement of people across borders. Not just for tourism. For work. We're all better off if people can legitimately move to where their labor productivity is higher. The numbers are fairly clear on this. I've seen estimates that you could double global GDP just by letting people migrate to where there's more productive capital available. Climate change makes this even more important. Mass migration is almost certainly going to happen -- we can let it happen in an orderly way, or we can let it be chaotic.
- xenosapien 12y agoUnfortunately, Racism and protectionism will make sure this will never happen.
- gnu8 12y agoHow can we damage this company?
- GoldenHomer 12y agoHoly hell - I thought this was the same company I applied to a while ago for a position because the location is the same. It turns out it's not and I am glad. $1.21 is just inhumane.
- duckingtest 12y agoAssuming their life expenses were paid (hard to imagine they weren't - how would they survive?), what's wrong with that? It's illegal, but that's it.