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Why is every semi-pro athlete expected to get a decent GPA in order to play on a university's football team? It's a completely different skillset. I don't bla

Why is every semi-pro athlete expected to get a decent GPA in order to play on a university's football team? It's a completely different skillset. I don't blame players for ditching classes to pursue their dreams. Quite the opposite, in fact. It's the same drive as an entrepreneur's: to test yourself, to excel. It's just a different context. They are adults. If, as adults, they choose not to pursue academic studies, and instead choose to focus all of their energy on sports, then they should be allowed to do that without putting their sports career at risk. I do blame everyone involved in the fakeness, though. Their decisions should stand on their own.

JoeAltmaier 12y ago
Sure; but they shouldn't be playing on a college team. As in, if you don't work at a company you shouldn't play on the company team.
- sillysaurus3 12y ago
  Why not? (I ask this in hopes of being persuaded, not to defend a position.)
  - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
    Because colleges have the stated goal of educating people. Its cynical (as the commenter above mentioned at the end) to join the college with no intention of actually getting educated. Its called a 'shill' or ringer - somebody you get from outside to represent you, that is not actually a member of your organization beyond the single task (sports).
    - llamataboot 12y ago
      But this has nothing to do with how NCAA athletics have worked in the US, especially in football, for decades. You can't blame the players, when they are pursuing the sports path open to them, blame the colleges.
      - mbreese 12y ago
        The professional leagues are also complicit (baseball less so). Both the NFL and NBA have age limits on their draft picks. At least the NBA has a development league, but the NFL has no farm system to speak of (outside of the NCAA).
    - Alex3917 12y ago
      > Because colleges have the stated goal of educating people. And do you suppose that people are just born being really good at sports? Of course not, it takes thousands of hours of learning/education. If we're going to treat things like math and economics as academic subjects, then I don't see how football is any different.
      - cousin_it 12y ago
        Agreed! With one minor correction. If the main thing you're studying is football, you should get a degree in football. I'm a big fan of imagining reforms that don't change anything but just rename things to their proper names. It's an interesting way to see the world.
  - maxerickson 12y ago
    A different take on it is that the schools shouldn't advertise them as student-athletes that are there on "scholarships" (scare quotes because taking a fake class isn't very scholarly).
  - dragonwriter 12y ago
    Colleges are academic institutions. If you want to be semi-pro athlete rather than a student-athlete, you should join a semi-pro team rather than an academic institution.
    - frandroid 12y ago
      The students would have to be paid something in order for them to be semi-pro. They are amateur athletes. Ironically, the teams themselves have to be considered professional, considering the amount of income they generate.
    - sehr 12y ago
      There are no semi pro football teams. Simplifying it all down to that is naive and ignorant, the athletes are using the system that's been put in place for them to succeed. Ignoring the NCAA route in favor of anything else at this point isn't just career suicide, it's career abortion.
      - wavefunction 12y ago
        http://www.semiprofootball.org/ http://www.semiprofootball.org/
        sehr 12y ago
        That means absolutely nothing. Looking at the lowest level of college football, there are only 11 active roster NFL players from a D3 school. [0] There are 1,696 active NFL players, that's a 0.6 percent chance of 'making it', at the lowest level of the game. Again, absolute and utter career suicide because of some moral grievance. [0] - http://www.d3football.com/interactive/faq/general#14 http://www.d3football.com/interactive/faq/general#14
      - dragonwriter 12y ago
        > There are no semi pro football teams. Yes, there are. True, they aren't a good way to get into the NFL, because the NFL prefer to recruit from college teams. But the question then shouldn't be "why are college athletes expected to meet the academic sstandards that go with being in college" but "why do major professional sports teams in certain sports prefer to recruit from colleges rather than lesser professional leagues in the same sport"?
  - droopyEyelids 12y ago
    You're questioning the fundamental purpose of an institution in such a way that it's hard to answer. Why shouldn't universities also run all sorts of other businesses, and then make money from their student consultants? Because the institution of a university exists to provide an academic education that will help them function in the world after school. Because offering a degree in Football would be more predatory than most for-profit colleges Audio Engineer courses.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
      Still a little off: colleges don't make money from football. The football program is generally a separate corporate entity, with its own profit and loss. Our coach makes $7M while the president of the university makes $300,000. If the college owned the football program that might be different.
      - dllthomas 12y ago
        One argument I hear is that colleges make money from football because football inspires donations to the college. I have heard various things as to whether this actually reflects reality and I haven't investigated the matter myself.
dragonwriter 12y ago
> Why is every semi-pro athlete expected to get a decent GPA in order to play on a university's football team? Because there are semi-pro teams and university teams, and the two things are not the same thing. > If, as adults, they choose not to pursue academic studies, and instead choose to focus all of their energy on sports, then they should be allowed to do that without putting their sports career at risk. Sure, and if they choose to do that, they should do it somewhere other than an academic institution.
- cellis 12y ago
  I disagree. Playing sports at the highest levels is an academic activity, it's just not recognized as an academic activity today. You definitely have to study, recognize patterns, solve problems, etc. Just not so much reading books and writing papers.
  - jordanpg 12y ago
    > reading books and writing papers. So you'd argue that football is an intellectual pursuit in the same sense that math, physics, philosophy, or history is? That study of the nuts and bolts of the game is worthy of the attention of our finest minds (as a discipline unto itself)? The "reading books and writing papers" you mention is a severe and tragic distortion of why universities exist. It has little to do with the academic activity that's occurring outside the undergraduate classrooms. It might be the case that there is a lot of waste happening in universities due to the commodification of education, but that doesn't trivialize the serious work that's still happening, however underfunded it remains.
    - Retric 12y ago
      It's at least on par with, literature, music, philosophy, history, sociology, psychology, art, or any other "soft" subjects lacking of direct impact on people's lives. It's held to a higher standard than economics, but has less impact. As to math I would argue it's more meaningful than say topology, but less than other branches.
rrrx3 12y ago
The problem is that they're being exploited. Choose to go to class or not, they are not being paid anything remotely close to the value that these schools get from them in terms of team gear sales, ad revenue, tv time, increased enrollment, etc etc etc. This is especially true when they're turning in BS papers for crap degrees that can't and won't serve them once they leave school. A minuscule few make it pro. The rest - if they graduate, even - have only an AFAM degree to show for it and no real life skills. I agree that if they want to be athletes, they should be allowed to be athletes. But they should be paid appropriately for it in kind.
- differentView 12y ago
  >they are not being paid anything remotely close to the value that these schools get from them in terms of team gear sales, ad revenue, tv time, increased enrollment, etc etc etc. This is true for only a very small percentage of college athletes. Most college sports don't generate a lot of money for their schools. Even the most popular sports, men's football and men's basketball, generate big money for a minority of elite programs.
  - vinceguidry 12y ago
    Let's look at it another way. 40 out of 50 states' highest paid public employee is a head football or basketball coach.
  - ska 12y ago
    But isn't it this same minority of elite programs looking for ways to carry academically incompetent students? Most student athletes are students first, not looking for an opening in a professional league.
- brudgers 12y ago
  In the case of gridiron football the system is a subsidy to the NFL which avoids player development costs...often at taxpayer expense. Likewise, the colleges pass off youth development costs to the public high school systems...again at taxpayer expense. For the players. this form of amateurism means they have no power to negotiate contracts to offset the risks associated with the sport.
wolf_cook 12y ago
While I agree with this perspective on athletics at a university, it does seem like it ought to be an issue with the school's academic accreditation. I don't believe that a university that practices this should have their degrees recognized this way. I will say that I'm not really sure who values this certification though.
cma 12y ago
The replies are saying the schools provide prestige, visibility to scouts, and training/coaching/advice. Change the terms in your post and theirs a bit, and I can't tell if we are talking about exploiting footballers or participants in the YCombinator program.
jordanpg 12y ago
The GPA requirement is incidental. It happens to be the barrier to playing ball. There is a straightforward economic incentive (money) for both the school and the athletes to practice more and win more, and it plainly has nothing to do with academics, whatever the grand rhetoric about student athletes. As with all such situations, when there is a barrier to economic success, the system will gradually evolve to short circuit those barriers (cheating) as much as is possible within the confines of the rules. This is well documented by now. I have to imagine that UNC was just unlucky enough to get caught.
SeanLuke 12y ago
> Why is every semi-pro athlete expected to get a decent GPA in order to play on a university's football team? Because they are not semi-pro athletes. They are university students first and amateur athletes second. Or at least that's what's being claimed. And as students, they have to pass the same general education curriculum as every other student in the university, and to the same standards. > If, as adults, they choose not to pursue academic studies, and instead choose to focus all of their energy on sports, then they should be allowed to do that without putting their sports career at risk. Sure. But this should be done outside of a university environment. The problem is not that athletes expected to be good students. The problem is that in the US they are expected to be students at all.
pXMzR2A 12y ago
> get a decent GPA A 2.0 is not a decent grade nor GPA, it means you're failing at most of your classes and will probably be expelled. Btw, your argument is "leave the school and pursue sports." I just found that interesting, that's all.

JoeAltmaier 12y ago

Sure; but they shouldn't be playing on a college team. As in, if you don't work at a company you shouldn't play on the company team.

sillysaurus3 12y ago
Why not? (I ask this in hopes of being persuaded, not to defend a position.)
- JoeAltmaier 12y ago
  Because colleges have the stated goal of educating people. Its cynical (as the commenter above mentioned at the end) to join the college with no intention of actually getting educated. Its called a 'shill' or ringer - somebody you get from outside to represent you, that is not actually a member of your organization beyond the single task (sports).
  - llamataboot 12y ago
    But this has nothing to do with how NCAA athletics have worked in the US, especially in football, for decades. You can't blame the players, when they are pursuing the sports path open to them, blame the colleges.
    - mbreese 12y ago
      The professional leagues are also complicit (baseball less so). Both the NFL and NBA have age limits on their draft picks. At least the NBA has a development league, but the NFL has no farm system to speak of (outside of the NCAA).
  - Alex3917 12y ago
    > Because colleges have the stated goal of educating people. And do you suppose that people are just born being really good at sports? Of course not, it takes thousands of hours of learning/education. If we're going to treat things like math and economics as academic subjects, then I don't see how football is any different.
    - cousin_it 12y ago
      Agreed! With one minor correction. If the main thing you're studying is football, you should get a degree in football. I'm a big fan of imagining reforms that don't change anything but just rename things to their proper names. It's an interesting way to see the world.
- maxerickson 12y ago
  A different take on it is that the schools shouldn't advertise them as student-athletes that are there on "scholarships" (scare quotes because taking a fake class isn't very scholarly).
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  Colleges are academic institutions. If you want to be semi-pro athlete rather than a student-athlete, you should join a semi-pro team rather than an academic institution.
  - frandroid 12y ago
    The students would have to be paid something in order for them to be semi-pro. They are amateur athletes. Ironically, the teams themselves have to be considered professional, considering the amount of income they generate.
  - sehr 12y ago
    There are no semi pro football teams. Simplifying it all down to that is naive and ignorant, the athletes are using the system that's been put in place for them to succeed. Ignoring the NCAA route in favor of anything else at this point isn't just career suicide, it's career abortion.
    - wavefunction 12y ago
      http://www.semiprofootball.org/ http://www.semiprofootball.org/
      - sehr 12y ago
        That means absolutely nothing. Looking at the lowest level of college football, there are only 11 active roster NFL players from a D3 school. [0] There are 1,696 active NFL players, that's a 0.6 percent chance of 'making it', at the lowest level of the game. Again, absolute and utter career suicide because of some moral grievance. [0] - http://www.d3football.com/interactive/faq/general#14 http://www.d3football.com/interactive/faq/general#14
    - dragonwriter 12y ago
      > There are no semi pro football teams. Yes, there are. True, they aren't a good way to get into the NFL, because the NFL prefer to recruit from college teams. But the question then shouldn't be "why are college athletes expected to meet the academic sstandards that go with being in college" but "why do major professional sports teams in certain sports prefer to recruit from colleges rather than lesser professional leagues in the same sport"?
- droopyEyelids 12y ago
  You're questioning the fundamental purpose of an institution in such a way that it's hard to answer. Why shouldn't universities also run all sorts of other businesses, and then make money from their student consultants? Because the institution of a university exists to provide an academic education that will help them function in the world after school. Because offering a degree in Football would be more predatory than most for-profit colleges Audio Engineer courses.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
    Still a little off: colleges don't make money from football. The football program is generally a separate corporate entity, with its own profit and loss. Our coach makes $7M while the president of the university makes $300,000. If the college owned the football program that might be different.
    - dllthomas 12y ago
      One argument I hear is that colleges make money from football because football inspires donations to the college. I have heard various things as to whether this actually reflects reality and I haven't investigated the matter myself.

dragonwriter 12y ago

> Why is every semi-pro athlete expected to get a decent GPA in order to play on a university's football team? Because there are semi-pro teams and university teams, and the two things are not the same thing. > If, as adults, they choose not to pursue academic studies, and instead choose to focus all of their energy on sports, then they should be allowed to do that without putting their sports career at risk. Sure, and if they choose to do that, they should do it somewhere other than an academic institution.

cellis 12y ago
I disagree. Playing sports at the highest levels is an academic activity, it's just not recognized as an academic activity today. You definitely have to study, recognize patterns, solve problems, etc. Just not so much reading books and writing papers.
- jordanpg 12y ago
  > reading books and writing papers. So you'd argue that football is an intellectual pursuit in the same sense that math, physics, philosophy, or history is? That study of the nuts and bolts of the game is worthy of the attention of our finest minds (as a discipline unto itself)? The "reading books and writing papers" you mention is a severe and tragic distortion of why universities exist. It has little to do with the academic activity that's occurring outside the undergraduate classrooms. It might be the case that there is a lot of waste happening in universities due to the commodification of education, but that doesn't trivialize the serious work that's still happening, however underfunded it remains.
  - Retric 12y ago
    It's at least on par with, literature, music, philosophy, history, sociology, psychology, art, or any other "soft" subjects lacking of direct impact on people's lives. It's held to a higher standard than economics, but has less impact. As to math I would argue it's more meaningful than say topology, but less than other branches.

rrrx3 12y ago

The problem is that they're being exploited. Choose to go to class or not, they are not being paid anything remotely close to the value that these schools get from them in terms of team gear sales, ad revenue, tv time, increased enrollment, etc etc etc. This is especially true when they're turning in BS papers for crap degrees that can't and won't serve them once they leave school. A minuscule few make it pro. The rest - if they graduate, even - have only an AFAM degree to show for it and no real life skills. I agree that if they want to be athletes, they should be allowed to be athletes. But they should be paid appropriately for it in kind.

differentView 12y ago
>they are not being paid anything remotely close to the value that these schools get from them in terms of team gear sales, ad revenue, tv time, increased enrollment, etc etc etc. This is true for only a very small percentage of college athletes. Most college sports don't generate a lot of money for their schools. Even the most popular sports, men's football and men's basketball, generate big money for a minority of elite programs.
- vinceguidry 12y ago
  Let's look at it another way. 40 out of 50 states' highest paid public employee is a head football or basketball coach.
- ska 12y ago
  But isn't it this same minority of elite programs looking for ways to carry academically incompetent students? Most student athletes are students first, not looking for an opening in a professional league.
brudgers 12y ago
In the case of gridiron football the system is a subsidy to the NFL which avoids player development costs...often at taxpayer expense. Likewise, the colleges pass off youth development costs to the public high school systems...again at taxpayer expense. For the players. this form of amateurism means they have no power to negotiate contracts to offset the risks associated with the sport.

wolf_cook 12y ago

While I agree with this perspective on athletics at a university, it does seem like it ought to be an issue with the school's academic accreditation. I don't believe that a university that practices this should have their degrees recognized this way. I will say that I'm not really sure who values this certification though.

cma 12y ago

The replies are saying the schools provide prestige, visibility to scouts, and training/coaching/advice. Change the terms in your post and theirs a bit, and I can't tell if we are talking about exploiting footballers or participants in the YCombinator program.

jordanpg 12y ago

The GPA requirement is incidental. It happens to be the barrier to playing ball. There is a straightforward economic incentive (money) for both the school and the athletes to practice more and win more, and it plainly has nothing to do with academics, whatever the grand rhetoric about student athletes. As with all such situations, when there is a barrier to economic success, the system will gradually evolve to short circuit those barriers (cheating) as much as is possible within the confines of the rules. This is well documented by now. I have to imagine that UNC was just unlucky enough to get caught.

SeanLuke 12y ago

> Why is every semi-pro athlete expected to get a decent GPA in order to play on a university's football team? Because they are not semi-pro athletes. They are university students first and amateur athletes second. Or at least that's what's being claimed. And as students, they have to pass the same general education curriculum as every other student in the university, and to the same standards. > If, as adults, they choose not to pursue academic studies, and instead choose to focus all of their energy on sports, then they should be allowed to do that without putting their sports career at risk. Sure. But this should be done outside of a university environment. The problem is not that athletes expected to be good students. The problem is that in the US they are expected to be students at all.

pXMzR2A 12y ago

> get a decent GPA A 2.0 is not a decent grade nor GPA, it means you're failing at most of your classes and will probably be expelled. Btw, your argument is "leave the school and pursue sports." I just found that interesting, that's all.