5 ms·

I feel like both 'sides' are talking around each other here. Both have points, both are overstated. Personally, I'd worry less about the headiness of these boo

I feel like both 'sides' are talking around each other here. Both have points, both are overstated. Personally, I'd worry less about the headiness of these books than what seem to be common themes of characters whose defining characteristics are innate - birth as a demigod, half-wizard or having a high midichlorian count. Does anyone still write about 'normal' people doing great things?

CocaKoala 12y ago
Can you provide some examples of stories with characters whose defining characteristics aren't innate? It seems like you're trying to say that you want to read stories about people who are 'normal', but that doesn't really mean anything. Are you just looking for books that don't have any element of fantasy to them?
- yarrel 12y ago
  It's the Disney Princess problem.
  - CocaKoala 12y ago
    I'm unfamiliar with this problem, possibly because I'm not a Disney Princess. Is it referring to the fact that disney princesses tend to be women who have some exceptional circumstance thrust upon them?
- LanceH 12y ago
  Game of Thrones has tons of examples. The characters act according to the situation they are in, how they were raised, not generally because they are archetypes. Is this character conspicuous because things worked out for him? Or did things work out for this character because he is conspicuous in some way? Game of Thrones has a lot of the first, virtually no teen book does. They are imbued with something special and everything works out because of their specialness. Sometimes multiple other characters join the cause sacrificing or putting on hold their lives because this person is a prince(ss). With all this dystopian teen drama going around, I wonder how many SF authors are out there kicking themselves for not writing a romantic triangle into their story.
  - CocaKoala 12y ago
    I haven't read Game of Thrones, so this doesn't clarify things for me that much. It's hard for me to think of books I've read where the main character is not notable in some way, but it's also hard for me to think of books I've read where things simply resolve themselves for the main character as a result of that notability, as opposed to effort on the part of the character. So I guess the answer is "Yes, lots of people are writing those books"?
    - DanBC 12y ago
      > It's hard for me to think of books I've read where the main character is not notable in some way It's a standard plot: ordinary person living an ordinary life feels constrained by that life; boom thing happens, causing ordinary person to go on a journey. Character development happens on the journey. I'm kind of surprised that you can't think of any book like this.
      - CocaKoala 12y ago
        Please list some. I can easily think of books which follow the plot you outlined; I have a much harder time thinking of books which follow the plot you outlined where the main character remains normal through the duration (as opposed to finding some innate quality within themselves which helps them triumph over hardship). edit: I mean, Harry Potter fits the bill you outlined, but is explicitly called out by the parent post as a half wizard.
        bstpierre 12y ago
        In "The Hobbit", Bilbo Baggins is a boring little non-noteworthy hobbit who rises to his circumstances. The same thing applies to Frodo in LOTR. I read James Patterson's "The Beach House" on a pair of short plane flights this past summer. It's a commercial/pulp thriller. The MC doesn't acquire any superpowers during the story except for becoming a badass willing to take significant risks when his life and that of his friends is on the line. Edit to add: Jack Ryan, especially in the early Tom Clancy novels. In any story worth reading the main character won't stay "normal" for the duration. The protagonist's change through the course of the story is part of the point of telling a story.
- seanflyon 12y ago
  Lord of the Rings is a good example. The Hobbits are just normal people, but still have an element of fantasy. They don't have magical powers or a great secret destiny, they are just regular people at the center of extraordinary events.
  - kedean 12y ago
    And yet they're surrounded by the last king of men (aragorn), a low level god (gandalf), a prince of elves (legolas), a prince of dwarves (gimli), and next in line to rule the biggest kingdom of men (boromir). Even after that, I'd argue that Frodo is only made interested through his posession of the one ring, not anything about himself. Sam is probably the only really interesting 'normal guy' in the story, and its only because he gets to tag along with the godly guys.
crpatino 12y ago
What about characters that are regular human beings... born to extremely wealthy families... which get murdered by petty criminals, providing the sion child with a live long hunger for vendetta? If you dig deep enough, every memorable character is a snowflake.
- CocaKoala 12y ago
  Even if you don't dig deep, every memorable character is a snowflake because people who aren't snowflakes are boring and thus aren't interesting or memorable. Stories are made to be interesting, and so they are, basically as a matter of fact, about people who end up being interesting. Even Walter Mitty, possibly the most average man in literature that I can think of, was exceptional in his imagination, and it is that exception which makes his story compelling.
  - soperj 12y ago
    How did American Splendor ever get a following then?
  - npsimons 12y ago
    Try "The Stars my Destination". A quick, enjoyable (IMHO) read, where the protagonist starts off unlikable and quite literally "The stereotype Common Man", but transforms into interesting. Many Great books have characters like this (just look to some of Dickens' stories). I guess some people's biggest complaints against a lot of popular bad writing is that it is indeed badly written: apart from having ridiculous (or no) plot, there's also no character development, or sometimes not even any character (what does it say about someone if their defining trait is not a part of their personality?). Some of us aren't just bored by unexceptional characters, we are bored by characters that don't change, even if they are "special".
    - CocaKoala 12y ago
      I actually read that years ago and had forgotten about it; I should read it again. Maybe Catch-22 is another example? Yossarian is a pretty average soldier, from what I recall.
logfromblammo 12y ago
Does having rich parents count as 'normal'? Perhaps Wayne Enterprises and Stark Industries are a form of magical empowerment. There are plenty of non-innate ways to make the protagonist remarkable in some way, and most can be hand-waved away as not important to the plot. Epic heroes are easy to follow. The magical origin story simply does not interfere with the adolescent empowerment fantasy. You, too, could be the secret bastard of an immortal, kid! That makes you special and important and worthy of respect! Tonight's homework: being awesome. Tonight's chores: save the whole freaking world. In those stories, the protagonist of the story is proxy for the hero in you, and it saves the author a whole lot of character development. If the main character is instead some sort of average Joe Schmoe, the author has to figure out a way to make the reader care about him, whether that be sympathy, pity, hatred, or whatever. There's good reason why some fiction stories seems to follow a formula. It's because the formula works. Define hero. Add conflict. Introduce the very likely possibility of defeat. Wind up to an epic confrontation, where the hero is ultimately victorious. Resolve subplots and romantic tension. The end. If you want to read about normal people doing great things, read a nonfiction biography. In fiction, there are no normal people, because every author has the mystical superpower of invoking the suspension of disbelief by any means necessary.
snowwrestler 12y ago
The characters of Harry Potter and Percy Jackson are normal in their fictional worlds. In fact a major running theme of Harry Potter's story is that he is not imbued with magical power that is any greater or more remarkable than his allies or enemies, but manages to prevail through bravery, loyalty, luck, preparation, hard work, etc. The stories are set in fantastical worlds to make them more interesting to read, but the issues they address are mostly "normal" young adult issues like alienation, conformity, identity, family strife, censorship, oppresion, racism, bigotry, etc.

CocaKoala 12y ago

Can you provide some examples of stories with characters whose defining characteristics aren't innate? It seems like you're trying to say that you want to read stories about people who are 'normal', but that doesn't really mean anything. Are you just looking for books that don't have any element of fantasy to them?

yarrel 12y ago
It's the Disney Princess problem.
- CocaKoala 12y ago
  I'm unfamiliar with this problem, possibly because I'm not a Disney Princess. Is it referring to the fact that disney princesses tend to be women who have some exceptional circumstance thrust upon them?
LanceH 12y ago
Game of Thrones has tons of examples. The characters act according to the situation they are in, how they were raised, not generally because they are archetypes. Is this character conspicuous because things worked out for him? Or did things work out for this character because he is conspicuous in some way? Game of Thrones has a lot of the first, virtually no teen book does. They are imbued with something special and everything works out because of their specialness. Sometimes multiple other characters join the cause sacrificing or putting on hold their lives because this person is a prince(ss). With all this dystopian teen drama going around, I wonder how many SF authors are out there kicking themselves for not writing a romantic triangle into their story.
- CocaKoala 12y ago
  I haven't read Game of Thrones, so this doesn't clarify things for me that much. It's hard for me to think of books I've read where the main character is not notable in some way, but it's also hard for me to think of books I've read where things simply resolve themselves for the main character as a result of that notability, as opposed to effort on the part of the character. So I guess the answer is "Yes, lots of people are writing those books"?
  - DanBC 12y ago
    > It's hard for me to think of books I've read where the main character is not notable in some way It's a standard plot: ordinary person living an ordinary life feels constrained by that life; boom thing happens, causing ordinary person to go on a journey. Character development happens on the journey. I'm kind of surprised that you can't think of any book like this.
    - CocaKoala 12y ago
      Please list some. I can easily think of books which follow the plot you outlined; I have a much harder time thinking of books which follow the plot you outlined where the main character remains normal through the duration (as opposed to finding some innate quality within themselves which helps them triumph over hardship). edit: I mean, Harry Potter fits the bill you outlined, but is explicitly called out by the parent post as a half wizard.
      - bstpierre 12y ago
        In "The Hobbit", Bilbo Baggins is a boring little non-noteworthy hobbit who rises to his circumstances. The same thing applies to Frodo in LOTR. I read James Patterson's "The Beach House" on a pair of short plane flights this past summer. It's a commercial/pulp thriller. The MC doesn't acquire any superpowers during the story except for becoming a badass willing to take significant risks when his life and that of his friends is on the line. Edit to add: Jack Ryan, especially in the early Tom Clancy novels. In any story worth reading the main character won't stay "normal" for the duration. The protagonist's change through the course of the story is part of the point of telling a story.
seanflyon 12y ago
Lord of the Rings is a good example. The Hobbits are just normal people, but still have an element of fantasy. They don't have magical powers or a great secret destiny, they are just regular people at the center of extraordinary events.
- kedean 12y ago
  And yet they're surrounded by the last king of men (aragorn), a low level god (gandalf), a prince of elves (legolas), a prince of dwarves (gimli), and next in line to rule the biggest kingdom of men (boromir). Even after that, I'd argue that Frodo is only made interested through his posession of the one ring, not anything about himself. Sam is probably the only really interesting 'normal guy' in the story, and its only because he gets to tag along with the godly guys.

crpatino 12y ago

What about characters that are regular human beings... born to extremely wealthy families... which get murdered by petty criminals, providing the sion child with a live long hunger for vendetta? If you dig deep enough, every memorable character is a snowflake.

CocaKoala 12y ago
Even if you don't dig deep, every memorable character is a snowflake because people who aren't snowflakes are boring and thus aren't interesting or memorable. Stories are made to be interesting, and so they are, basically as a matter of fact, about people who end up being interesting. Even Walter Mitty, possibly the most average man in literature that I can think of, was exceptional in his imagination, and it is that exception which makes his story compelling.
- soperj 12y ago
  How did American Splendor ever get a following then?
- npsimons 12y ago
  Try "The Stars my Destination". A quick, enjoyable (IMHO) read, where the protagonist starts off unlikable and quite literally "The stereotype Common Man", but transforms into interesting. Many Great books have characters like this (just look to some of Dickens' stories). I guess some people's biggest complaints against a lot of popular bad writing is that it is indeed badly written: apart from having ridiculous (or no) plot, there's also no character development, or sometimes not even any character (what does it say about someone if their defining trait is not a part of their personality?). Some of us aren't just bored by unexceptional characters, we are bored by characters that don't change, even if they are "special".
  - CocaKoala 12y ago
    I actually read that years ago and had forgotten about it; I should read it again. Maybe Catch-22 is another example? Yossarian is a pretty average soldier, from what I recall.

logfromblammo 12y ago

Does having rich parents count as 'normal'? Perhaps Wayne Enterprises and Stark Industries are a form of magical empowerment. There are plenty of non-innate ways to make the protagonist remarkable in some way, and most can be hand-waved away as not important to the plot. Epic heroes are easy to follow. The magical origin story simply does not interfere with the adolescent empowerment fantasy. You, too, could be the secret bastard of an immortal, kid! That makes you special and important and worthy of respect! Tonight's homework: being awesome. Tonight's chores: save the whole freaking world. In those stories, the protagonist of the story is proxy for the hero in you, and it saves the author a whole lot of character development. If the main character is instead some sort of average Joe Schmoe, the author has to figure out a way to make the reader care about him, whether that be sympathy, pity, hatred, or whatever. There's good reason why some fiction stories seems to follow a formula. It's because the formula works. Define hero. Add conflict. Introduce the very likely possibility of defeat. Wind up to an epic confrontation, where the hero is ultimately victorious. Resolve subplots and romantic tension. The end. If you want to read about normal people doing great things, read a nonfiction biography. In fiction, there are no normal people, because every author has the mystical superpower of invoking the suspension of disbelief by any means necessary.

snowwrestler 12y ago

The characters of Harry Potter and Percy Jackson are normal in their fictional worlds. In fact a major running theme of Harry Potter's story is that he is not imbued with magical power that is any greater or more remarkable than his allies or enemies, but manages to prevail through bravery, loyalty, luck, preparation, hard work, etc. The stories are set in fantastical worlds to make them more interesting to read, but the issues they address are mostly "normal" young adult issues like alienation, conformity, identity, family strife, censorship, oppresion, racism, bigotry, etc.