4 ms·

I'm maybe a bit more libertarian than most HN readers, which is already a bit more libertarian than most people (especially Europeans), but when I do support ta

by rdl 12y ago

I'm maybe a bit more libertarian than most HN readers, which is already a bit more libertarian than most people (especially Europeans), but when I do support taxes, I'd rather they be as broad-based as possible, unless they're targeting something which has negative externalities. Universally applied VAT is (aside from the data-collection requirements) proven to be one of the least economically distorting taxes -- creating the least deadweight loss. This tax seems almost pathologically bad -- taxing something with largely positive externalities. Normally you try "sin taxes" which tax things reviewed as having NEGATIVE externalities (CO2, smoking, even unhealthy foods). It's like taxing people for reading books, or for volunteering their time to useful charities, or for picking up litter on the street. Actively discouraging something which has positive returns to society as a whole when people use more of it!

flexie 12y ago
The Internet, while most of us don't care, has negative externalities as well: - killing hundreds of thousands of businesses such as bookstores, movie rental stores, record stores; - makes it possible through IP telephony, email, the web, collaboration tools etc. to outsource millions of jobs; - is a time consumer like no other before; Yes, the Internet creates businesses as well but I don't think I've ever used a Hungarian Internet business. Also, the outsourced jobs go mainly to Asia. I could see why a conservative government would tax the Internet.
- sz4kerto 12y ago
  > I don't think I've ever used a Hungarian Internet business There are a couple of successful ones though - Ustream is quite widely used, so is LogMeIn or LiveJasmin (webcam porn).
- m0g 12y ago
  If I'm not mistaken, prezi is hungarian and very widely used
- nightcracker 12y ago
  I really hate this mindset. These businesses aren't being killed by the internet - they've simply outlived their use. This is the risk of being a business in transport. If a cheaper, faster and more accessible form of transport comes along you go out of business. Not because something has killed you or your business (you are perfectly allowed to still do your business as you like), but because you aren't useful anymore. For example the milkman disappeared with the invention of refrigerated transport. Not because the milkman was killed, but because he was no longer useful. Please, do not defend things that are not useful. s/milkman/CD/ s/refrigerated transport/internet file transfer/
  - flexie 12y ago
    I agree, but I'm no milkman. Amazon (books etc), Google and Facebook (advertising), Apple (music and movies), and many other Internet companies take jobs from Hungarian voters. And as far as I remember these companies don't pay much tax. They probably add some jobs, but if you worked in the bookstore, the advertising agency or the record store, and your job was lost to the Internet, you would be the one feeling the externalities of the Internet.
    - allendoerfer 12y ago
      I don't know, why he is downvoted. He actually makes valid points. The internet and globalization as a whole open possibilities for less developed countries. At the same time, they are often exposing their markets to competition they simply cannot compete with at this point. The common argument is, that these countries should open up, catch up in education and participate in the next wave of innovation (e.g. skip the web, go directly to mobile) or learn from the faults of the first movers (e.g. European cc-payments requiring pin). But when we look at the country arguably profiting the most from globalization, China, we find that it is massively protecting its market by requiring joint ventures with local companies and blocking internet-based companies, which could circumvent these measurements. These points do not mean, that taxing internet traffic is the right thing to do, it just means, that not all regulations are bad. You have to look carefully at each industry. In Germany taxis are strongly regulated. Drivers get special trainings, the cars have to be checked more often than regular cars, a taxi has to accept every passenger and so on. I support them fighting Uber, which ignores these regulations and is trying to build a monopoly by competing on price. And monopolies are bad for workers and in the end customers, even if Peter Thiel wants to sell a book. Edit: His parent comment is now dead, but you can get the context out of nightcrackers answer.
- e7620 12y ago
  The Internet, while most of us don't care, has negative externalities as well: - killing hundreds of thousands of businesses such as bookstores, movie rental stores, record stores; - makes it possible through IP telephony, email, the web, collaboration tools etc. to outsource millions of jobs; - is a time consumer like no other before; With that philosophy, agriculture would still comprise 100% of the economy. Yes, everybody, even kids, would have a job, but who wants that standard of living? Also, about wasting time on the internet, maybe for you socializing or gaming is a waste of time, but before internet people also did this, additions already existed back then you know. Yes, the Internet creates businesses as well but I don't think I've ever used a Hungarian Internet business. Also, the outsourced jobs go mainly to Asia. I could see why a conservative government would tax the Internet. That's because you don't live there. When you know several languages, you see there are huge properties outside the five eyes Internet.
  - flexie 12y ago
    It's not a philosophy. It's how politics work. I don't think Hungary will return to pre-industrial times because of an Internet tax.
    - e7620 12y ago
      > I don't think Hungary will return to pre-industrial times because of an Internet tax. It will not return but they'll be stuck there. This will have a chilling effect on the economy, and about all new jobs enabled by the internet? no new job will be created, they'll go to other countries without imposed tax barriers.
      - flexie 12y ago
        Nonsense. There are hundreds of direct and indirect taxes in any modern economy. A 175 million euro tax is one of the least important ones for the economy. Income taxes, capital gains taxes, corporate profit taxes etc. are much more important, even to most Internet companies, than the proposed Internet tax because they are much bigger.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
sliverstorm 12y ago
It seems to me more like an infrastructure use tax, which seem to work fine. Don't you pay usage-based taxes for the public roads (via gasoline taxes)? Now I guess the next question is, are the pipes in Hungary publicly owned.

by rdl 12y ago

flexie 12y ago

The Internet, while most of us don't care, has negative externalities as well: - killing hundreds of thousands of businesses such as bookstores, movie rental stores, record stores; - makes it possible through IP telephony, email, the web, collaboration tools etc. to outsource millions of jobs; - is a time consumer like no other before; Yes, the Internet creates businesses as well but I don't think I've ever used a Hungarian Internet business. Also, the outsourced jobs go mainly to Asia. I could see why a conservative government would tax the Internet.

sz4kerto 12y ago
> I don't think I've ever used a Hungarian Internet business There are a couple of successful ones though - Ustream is quite widely used, so is LogMeIn or LiveJasmin (webcam porn).
m0g 12y ago
If I'm not mistaken, prezi is hungarian and very widely used
nightcracker 12y ago
I really hate this mindset. These businesses aren't being killed by the internet - they've simply outlived their use. This is the risk of being a business in transport. If a cheaper, faster and more accessible form of transport comes along you go out of business. Not because something has killed you or your business (you are perfectly allowed to still do your business as you like), but because you aren't useful anymore. For example the milkman disappeared with the invention of refrigerated transport. Not because the milkman was killed, but because he was no longer useful. Please, do not defend things that are not useful. s/milkman/CD/ s/refrigerated transport/internet file transfer/
- flexie 12y ago
  I agree, but I'm no milkman. Amazon (books etc), Google and Facebook (advertising), Apple (music and movies), and many other Internet companies take jobs from Hungarian voters. And as far as I remember these companies don't pay much tax. They probably add some jobs, but if you worked in the bookstore, the advertising agency or the record store, and your job was lost to the Internet, you would be the one feeling the externalities of the Internet.
  - allendoerfer 12y ago
    I don't know, why he is downvoted. He actually makes valid points. The internet and globalization as a whole open possibilities for less developed countries. At the same time, they are often exposing their markets to competition they simply cannot compete with at this point. The common argument is, that these countries should open up, catch up in education and participate in the next wave of innovation (e.g. skip the web, go directly to mobile) or learn from the faults of the first movers (e.g. European cc-payments requiring pin). But when we look at the country arguably profiting the most from globalization, China, we find that it is massively protecting its market by requiring joint ventures with local companies and blocking internet-based companies, which could circumvent these measurements. These points do not mean, that taxing internet traffic is the right thing to do, it just means, that not all regulations are bad. You have to look carefully at each industry. In Germany taxis are strongly regulated. Drivers get special trainings, the cars have to be checked more often than regular cars, a taxi has to accept every passenger and so on. I support them fighting Uber, which ignores these regulations and is trying to build a monopoly by competing on price. And monopolies are bad for workers and in the end customers, even if Peter Thiel wants to sell a book. Edit: His parent comment is now dead, but you can get the context out of nightcrackers answer.
e7620 12y ago
The Internet, while most of us don't care, has negative externalities as well: - killing hundreds of thousands of businesses such as bookstores, movie rental stores, record stores; - makes it possible through IP telephony, email, the web, collaboration tools etc. to outsource millions of jobs; - is a time consumer like no other before; With that philosophy, agriculture would still comprise 100% of the economy. Yes, everybody, even kids, would have a job, but who wants that standard of living? Also, about wasting time on the internet, maybe for you socializing or gaming is a waste of time, but before internet people also did this, additions already existed back then you know. Yes, the Internet creates businesses as well but I don't think I've ever used a Hungarian Internet business. Also, the outsourced jobs go mainly to Asia. I could see why a conservative government would tax the Internet. That's because you don't live there. When you know several languages, you see there are huge properties outside the five eyes Internet.
- flexie 12y ago
  It's not a philosophy. It's how politics work. I don't think Hungary will return to pre-industrial times because of an Internet tax.
  - e7620 12y ago
    > I don't think Hungary will return to pre-industrial times because of an Internet tax. It will not return but they'll be stuck there. This will have a chilling effect on the economy, and about all new jobs enabled by the internet? no new job will be created, they'll go to other countries without imposed tax barriers.
    - flexie 12y ago
      Nonsense. There are hundreds of direct and indirect taxes in any modern economy. A 175 million euro tax is one of the least important ones for the economy. Income taxes, capital gains taxes, corporate profit taxes etc. are much more important, even to most Internet companies, than the proposed Internet tax because they are much bigger.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

sliverstorm 12y ago

It seems to me more like an infrastructure use tax, which seem to work fine. Don't you pay usage-based taxes for the public roads (via gasoline taxes)? Now I guess the next question is, are the pipes in Hungary publicly owned.