4 ms·

This same graph used in the article was extensively discussed on reddit 3 days ago. [1] I want to quote some of the comments, which I think is extremely import

by zxcv731 12y ago

This same graph used in the article was extensively discussed on reddit 3 days ago. [1] I want to quote some of the comments, which I think is extremely important to this discussion. " The far simpler answer is that the 1970's "explosion" of women into the (purported) field of "computer science" was largely women obtaining degrees in (what were then "computer science" courses) the subfields of "Data Processing" and later on "Word Processing". (Edit: see the Google Ngram on the transition of terminology from "Data Processing" to "Computer Science"[2] ). With the ending of punch cards, and the increasing decentralization via personal computers (and networks of them) and subsequent later software improvements (spreadsheets, advanced databases, WYSWYG word processing), those functions ceased to be viable degrees and lost their status as "computer science" related functions... everyone became (in one form or another) involved in data-entry and/or word processing. The plain truth of the matter is that women were NEVER highly represented in the true "computer science" fields of programming (and later network & database administration). " Although I believe the comment author can use a better tone, I think these facts are extremely important to this discussion. There were more people echoing that their grandmum got a CS degree in data entry[3] Edit: Data processing are indeed counted towards computer science. Although there is no data on the relative weight [4] http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/nsf13327/pdf/tabb1.pdf http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/nsf13327/pdf/tabb1.pdf [1]http://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/2joexk/what_happened_to_women_in_computer_science_of/cldob83 http://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/2joexk/what... [2]https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=data+processing%2Ccomputer+science&case_insensitive=on&year_start=1940&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t4%3B%2Cdata%20processing%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bdata%20processing%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BData%20Processing%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BData%20processing%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BDATA%20PROCESSING%3B%2Cc0%3B.t4%3B%2Ccomputer%20science%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3BComputer%20Science%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bcomputer%20science%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BComputer%20science%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BCOMPUTER%20SCIENCE%3B%2Cc0 https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=data+processin... [3]http://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/2joexk/what_happened_to_women_in_computer_science_of/cldqkih http://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/2joexk/what...

3rd3 12y ago
Sigh, not this comment again.
- zxcv731 12y ago
  I initially was quite annoyed by the tone of the comment. But purely looking at the facts, is this factually true? I don't have data that supports one way or another way. Looking at the comments, no one was able to dispute the claim and some other people also echoed that data entry was in fact a subfield of computer science.
  - jamesaguilar 12y ago
    > No one was able to dispute the claim. There is an invisible soundless fairy unicorn in my room. Please dispute this claim with evidence. Thanks in advance.
    - thedufer 12y ago
      That argument makes no sense in this context. The claim put forward is perfectly falsifiable.
jcdavis 12y ago
The account that made that comment is a frequent poster in mens rights & friends subreddits, and probably should not be taken without a SUBSTANIAL grain of salt (particularly given the lack of any data to back it up)
- zxcv731 12y ago
  I tend to agree that his comments should be taken with a grain of salt. I am curious if anyone here has a more definitive set of data.
  - jamesaguilar 12y ago
    You mean besides the Planet Money episode, which was well-researched and extensively sourced, with interviews of people who actually study the issue and are not radical mens' rights advocates?
- wyager 12y ago
  Is that not ad hominem? Attack the content of his post, not the content of his character.
  - jamesaguilar 12y ago
    Goes to credibility. When you're talking about a post with zero evidence presented, sometimes it really is more believable coming from Neil Degrasse Tyson versus the guy who believes in Timecube.
    - wyager 12y ago
      >zero evidence presented, He posted some evidence. Not a lot, but some. More than his detractors here have posted so far. There's also more in that reddit thread, it looks like. I'm not saying he's right, but it does no one any favors to slam someone instead of refuting their argument.
      - 12y ago
jamesaguilar 12y ago
The views in that comment are completely unsubstantiated. There was no evidence presented that "data processing" was ever taught as part of or categorized as computer science. In fact, later comments debunk that viewpoint. Also worth noting that the person who wrote that subscribes to the Men Going Their Own Way movement [1] (his username is thrownaway_MGTOW), which while not an outright debunking of his claims, should give you further cause for suspicion. [1] http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Men_Going_Their_Own_Way http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Men_Going_Their_Own_Way
- zxcv731 12y ago
  I agree, it is clear that the author seems to have a bit of a bias. (I guess you can also tell from his tone) Although the "debunk" wasn't very clear. With some posters that also saying that their family members indeed obtained data entry degree in computer science http://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/2joexk/what_happened_to_women_in_computer_science_of/cldqkih http://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/2joexk/what... Hard to make a judgement call, but I think the truth is probably not as clear cut as NPR suggests
  - jamesaguilar 12y ago
    > Hard to make a judgement call . . . It is not hard for me to decide whether to trust Planet Money or anonymous Reddit commenters, at least one of which is a known MRA, especially on a topic relating to sexism. I guess that might just speak to our different priors, but it's a no brainer over here.
- waterlesscloud 12y ago
  Regardless of the source of the comment, it would be interesting to have the source data to know exactly what they're classifying as "Computer Science" programs. That term has certainly increased in usage over the last several decades, and was not always in use in the decades prior to the 1980s. So what did the study use in its place? That's a valid question regardless of who raised it.
  - 12y ago
anigbrowl 12y ago
Degrees in data entry and word processing? This needs more substantiation than 'my grandma had one.' Edit: I followed up on that after getting back to the house and I did find some community colleges that offered certificates in word processing and business information systems (which could include data entry), some which might count for credit towards an associate degree. But I remain skeptical that such vocational qualifications were ever the basis of a full degree, or that such qualifications were formerly treated as synonymous with the study of computer science.
zxcv731 12y ago
This turned out to be very controversial. I was not around in those days. Can someone who studied computer science in the 70s comment on whether data entry/data process was indeed an important sub-field of data science? As another commenter pointed out, Data entry and data processing are indeed counted towards computer science. Although there is no data on the relative weight http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/nsf13327/pdf/tabb1.pdf http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/nsf13327/pdf/tabb1.pdf

by zxcv731 12y ago

3rd3 12y ago

Sigh, not this comment again.

zxcv731 12y ago
I initially was quite annoyed by the tone of the comment. But purely looking at the facts, is this factually true? I don't have data that supports one way or another way. Looking at the comments, no one was able to dispute the claim and some other people also echoed that data entry was in fact a subfield of computer science.
- jamesaguilar 12y ago
  > No one was able to dispute the claim. There is an invisible soundless fairy unicorn in my room. Please dispute this claim with evidence. Thanks in advance.
  - thedufer 12y ago
    That argument makes no sense in this context. The claim put forward is perfectly falsifiable.

jcdavis 12y ago

The account that made that comment is a frequent poster in mens rights & friends subreddits, and probably should not be taken without a SUBSTANIAL grain of salt (particularly given the lack of any data to back it up)

zxcv731 12y ago
I tend to agree that his comments should be taken with a grain of salt. I am curious if anyone here has a more definitive set of data.
- jamesaguilar 12y ago
  You mean besides the Planet Money episode, which was well-researched and extensively sourced, with interviews of people who actually study the issue and are not radical mens' rights advocates?
wyager 12y ago
Is that not ad hominem? Attack the content of his post, not the content of his character.
- jamesaguilar 12y ago
  Goes to credibility. When you're talking about a post with zero evidence presented, sometimes it really is more believable coming from Neil Degrasse Tyson versus the guy who believes in Timecube.
  - wyager 12y ago
    >zero evidence presented, He posted some evidence. Not a lot, but some. More than his detractors here have posted so far. There's also more in that reddit thread, it looks like. I'm not saying he's right, but it does no one any favors to slam someone instead of refuting their argument.
    - 12y ago

jamesaguilar 12y ago

The views in that comment are completely unsubstantiated. There was no evidence presented that "data processing" was ever taught as part of or categorized as computer science. In fact, later comments debunk that viewpoint. Also worth noting that the person who wrote that subscribes to the Men Going Their Own Way movement [1] (his username is thrownaway_MGTOW), which while not an outright debunking of his claims, should give you further cause for suspicion. [1] http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Men_Going_Their_Own_Way http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Men_Going_Their_Own_Way

zxcv731 12y ago
I agree, it is clear that the author seems to have a bit of a bias. (I guess you can also tell from his tone) Although the "debunk" wasn't very clear. With some posters that also saying that their family members indeed obtained data entry degree in computer science http://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/2joexk/what_happened_to_women_in_computer_science_of/cldqkih http://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/2joexk/what... Hard to make a judgement call, but I think the truth is probably not as clear cut as NPR suggests
- jamesaguilar 12y ago
  > Hard to make a judgement call . . . It is not hard for me to decide whether to trust Planet Money or anonymous Reddit commenters, at least one of which is a known MRA, especially on a topic relating to sexism. I guess that might just speak to our different priors, but it's a no brainer over here.
waterlesscloud 12y ago
Regardless of the source of the comment, it would be interesting to have the source data to know exactly what they're classifying as "Computer Science" programs. That term has certainly increased in usage over the last several decades, and was not always in use in the decades prior to the 1980s. So what did the study use in its place? That's a valid question regardless of who raised it.
- 12y ago

anigbrowl 12y ago

Degrees in data entry and word processing? This needs more substantiation than 'my grandma had one.' Edit: I followed up on that after getting back to the house and I did find some community colleges that offered certificates in word processing and business information systems (which could include data entry), some which might count for credit towards an associate degree. But I remain skeptical that such vocational qualifications were ever the basis of a full degree, or that such qualifications were formerly treated as synonymous with the study of computer science.

zxcv731 12y ago

This turned out to be very controversial. I was not around in those days. Can someone who studied computer science in the 70s comment on whether data entry/data process was indeed an important sub-field of data science? As another commenter pointed out, Data entry and data processing are indeed counted towards computer science. Although there is no data on the relative weight http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/nsf13327/pdf/tabb1.pdf http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/nsf13327/pdf/tabb1.pdf