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Without calling one group "REAL", it would be nice to have different words for different tiers of programmers. And I can't comment on the poster above, but whe

Without calling one group "REAL", it would be nice to have different words for different tiers of programmers. And I can't comment on the poster above, but when I do think of programming skill tiers, it's not at all about number of hours put in. Yes, if you're passionate about a problem it can mean you end up putting in extra time to solve it. But it's not about the time. It's about the passion. Similarly, it's not calling the leave-at-5pm programmers lazy. To them it's a job, and maybe even a job they're good at. I spend a lot of time living life outside of work, and I (usually) end up quitting after only about a normal day's work. But I also get more done in my work day than 98% of "programmers". And the reason is that I've had a consuming passion to learn about programming techniques, tools, algorithms, and even logic puzzles, ever since I can remember. So some of that free time involves reading about programming; if I enjoy it, then it certainly counts as living my life. When I don't feel like learning something about coding, I do something else in my varied set of hobbies and interests. The reason it would be nice to have different words for different tiers of programmers is that what I do is qualitatively different than what the copy-and-paste JavaScript writer is doing. I can certainly call myself a software engineer, or a game developer, or a graphics engineer, or a low-level programmer, but none of those really encapsulate it all; I also hit high performance server development, database optimization, networking, encryption/security, video streaming, and petal-to-the-metal assembly language optimization when necessary (though that's a skill that's less and less useful these days). And on top of that I write tools that help optimize the software development process for myself and my team. When I look at what I do vs. what a junior front-end web developer does, calling what I do the "same" as what the junior developer does is somewhat akin to calling an assistant handyman and an engineer who designs skyscrapers or rockets or nuclear reactors "both engineers, because they both help build things!". All that extra work the engineer puts in to learn and hone his trade should be worth something, and having a title for it does help. Something that bothers me about your coal miner analogy: The best possible coal miner is likely not more than 2x-3x better than the worst. Brooks' famous 10x performance difference only captures a small part of the real difference: There are things that I can do that a JavaScript developer simply can't do, no matter how much time they put in. Brooks was only measuring people trying to accomplish similar tasks, after all. And I'm not talking about domain expertise; I also follow and keep up with JavaScript and front-end development, and it's just orders-of-magnitude simpler than what I code on a weekly basis. And I do find that puzzle solving (though not the physical kind) does correlate pretty well with the ability to do the high-end, hard-core programming that I do. I certainly am good at both, and it would be hard to imagine how I could solve the complex algorithmic issues that I solve on a daily basis if I couldn't think clearly about logic puzzles.

reverius42 12y ago
I take offense at your gross misconceptions. JavaScript is by no means an "easy" language, certainly not orders of magnitude easier than whatever it is you do. The skills of a "JavaScript developer" include combining object-oriented and functional design patterns to organize a codebase, efficiently managing asynchronous communication and state, profiling and optimizing rendering and execution performance across the CPU and graphics card, designing and implementing for network security (including testing for HTTP headers, XSS, CSRF, etc.). What is it you do again?
- SomeCallMeTim 12y ago
  JavaScript can be used to do complex things. A "copy-and-paste JavaScript" developer, as I referenced above, is someone who can create web pages that have simple actions, but who doesn't do much original development. The language certainly doesn't define the programmer. I also use JavaScript on occasion; I wasn't trying to paint all JavaScript developers with the same brush. It sounds like what you do is NOT what I'm talking about, so please don't take offense. I write games, and tools to make games, and tools to stream interactive applications over the Internet. And apps. And the occasional web site.
  - reverius42 12y ago
    Fair enough. I think what we do is probably pretty similar, the difference being that I do it mostly in JavaScript. Perhaps there is something to your point -- I doubt there are nearly as many successful "copy and paste C++ developers" (although I have met at least one). It might be harder to cobble together even a barely-working piece of software from StackOverflow C++ posts.
    - SomeCallMeTim 12y ago
      I've met a copy-and-paste C++ developer myself, though he ended up losing the job eventually. Blew me away to discover this when I sat down to help him debug an algorithm that he had, in fact (correctly) copied from somewhere else, but then he'd slaughtered it trying to "make it work." Most of the fixes involved reverting his changes, and then making a couple minor modifications that WERE actually necessary. He'd been fighting with it for a couple days. I had it streaming sound in about 15 minutes. Based on his words to me after the fact, he was really just not understanding what the code was doing. Pretty much at all. That said, he did have some good insight into user interface design. I could see that he did have some important skill sets, but understanding how to manipulate memory in C was not one of them. Whether he was a "successful" developer is debatable, since he didn't hold the position, though. I'm sure that "copy and paste" developers exist for most common languages. I've heard from several sources that finding a non-copy-and-paste developer who uses JavaScript is a real rarity. I've also been told that Google in particular is looking for that skill set. Sounds like you could write you own ticket. :)

reverius42 12y ago

I take offense at your gross misconceptions. JavaScript is by no means an "easy" language, certainly not orders of magnitude easier than whatever it is you do. The skills of a "JavaScript developer" include combining object-oriented and functional design patterns to organize a codebase, efficiently managing asynchronous communication and state, profiling and optimizing rendering and execution performance across the CPU and graphics card, designing and implementing for network security (including testing for HTTP headers, XSS, CSRF, etc.). What is it you do again?

SomeCallMeTim 12y ago
JavaScript can be used to do complex things. A "copy-and-paste JavaScript" developer, as I referenced above, is someone who can create web pages that have simple actions, but who doesn't do much original development. The language certainly doesn't define the programmer. I also use JavaScript on occasion; I wasn't trying to paint all JavaScript developers with the same brush. It sounds like what you do is NOT what I'm talking about, so please don't take offense. I write games, and tools to make games, and tools to stream interactive applications over the Internet. And apps. And the occasional web site.
- reverius42 12y ago
  Fair enough. I think what we do is probably pretty similar, the difference being that I do it mostly in JavaScript. Perhaps there is something to your point -- I doubt there are nearly as many successful "copy and paste C++ developers" (although I have met at least one). It might be harder to cobble together even a barely-working piece of software from StackOverflow C++ posts.
  - SomeCallMeTim 12y ago
    I've met a copy-and-paste C++ developer myself, though he ended up losing the job eventually. Blew me away to discover this when I sat down to help him debug an algorithm that he had, in fact (correctly) copied from somewhere else, but then he'd slaughtered it trying to "make it work." Most of the fixes involved reverting his changes, and then making a couple minor modifications that WERE actually necessary. He'd been fighting with it for a couple days. I had it streaming sound in about 15 minutes. Based on his words to me after the fact, he was really just not understanding what the code was doing. Pretty much at all. That said, he did have some good insight into user interface design. I could see that he did have some important skill sets, but understanding how to manipulate memory in C was not one of them. Whether he was a "successful" developer is debatable, since he didn't hold the position, though. I'm sure that "copy and paste" developers exist for most common languages. I've heard from several sources that finding a non-copy-and-paste developer who uses JavaScript is a real rarity. I've also been told that Google in particular is looking for that skill set. Sounds like you could write you own ticket. :)