3 ms·

I felt the same, but I've come to realize that the comment you take issue with perfectly encapsulates the tech industry. A no holds barred race to the bottom. T

by FD3SA 12y ago

I felt the same, but I've come to realize that the comment you take issue with perfectly encapsulates the tech industry. A no holds barred race to the bottom. That's why work conditions, salary, stability and prestige are nowhere near comparable industries such as finance, heavy engineering, medicine, law, etc. Something about programmers makes them think they are all the destined one true hero, and as a result, programmers tend to disparage and disrespect their own peers, at great cost to themselves. My favorite is this guy [1], who was literally adding billions of dollars of revenue for Goldman Sachs, but was getting paid peanuts. When he left to pursue more interesting work (not for salary!), they brought the FBI down on him. I don't call myself a programmer, computer scientist, or any such low class term anymore. I'm a consultant, and I don't associate with self-deprecating professionals who denigrate their own fields. Humans are primates, and we form status hierarchies. Proudly exclaiming that your tribe is at the very bottom is the definition of stupidity. Good luck to those that do, I sincerely wish you the best. But when your salary stagnates, you're asked to work 80hr weeks without overtime, and you get no respect from management, maybe its time for a little self-reflection. There is a reason software dev is such a low status profession, and it's not because we're "nerds". It's because we self-denigrate and self-deprecate like no other profession on earth. 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Aleynikov http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Aleynikov EDIT: It is worth reading this article if you'd like some more details on this problem, from a fellow HN member who has dedicated a lot of time to thinking about it [2]. 2. http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2014/07/13/how-the-other-half-works-an-adventure-in-the-low-status-of-software-engineers/ http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2014/07/13/how-the-other...

khyryk 12y ago
> That's why work conditions, salary, stability and prestige are nowhere near comparable industries such as finance, heavy engineering, medicine, law, etc. As a combination or individually? Medicine is about the only one in the list that's strong in all of the listed characteristics. "Heavy engineering", to my knowledge, doesn't pay much more, finance doesn't seem that much more stable, and law certainly has good work conditions for those at the very top, but not for the newbies.
simplemath 12y ago
How did you get "other programmers" as the villain in Aleynikov's disgusting tale? Just wondering.
- FD3SA 12y ago
  Actually in his case, his worst enemy was himself. He did not accurately value himself within the organization either politically or economically [1]. He thus paid the price. The programmer types were different from the trader types. The trader types were far more alive to the bigger picture, to their context. They knew their worth in the marketplace down to the last penny. They understood the connection between what they did and how much money was made , and they were good at exaggerating the importance of the link. Serge wasn’t like that. He was a little-picture person, a narrow problem solver. “I think he didn’t know his own value,” says the recruiter. [2] 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7577872 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7577872 2. http://cryptome.org/2014/04/goldman-sachs-code-thief.htm http://cryptome.org/2014/04/goldman-sachs-code-thief.htm
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
auntienomen 12y ago
You should take with a grain of salt any assertions you see that Aleynikov was bringing in billions in revenue. The sub-industry he worked in doesn't see those kinds of numbers from any individual's effort.
- FD3SA 12y ago
  Please elucidate exactly to which sub-industry Goldman-Sachs belongs. I'm all ears. Last time I checked, banks are the most powerful industry, and GS is the most powerful bank[1]. Aleynikov was single handedly building, deploying, maintaining and updating Goldman-Sach's HFT framework. If you believe that key people like Aleynikov don't make the HFT industry profitable, a certain Medallion Fund and a Dr. James Simons would beg to differ. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzrBurlJUNk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzrBurlJUNk I don't know of any big software companies getting government bailouts after gambling with money they scammed from average citizen . Once you can get away with that, and not have a single executive do jail time, come back to me. Every industry is subservient to the whims of banks. They'll tell you otherwise, but actions speak louder than words.
  - auntienomen 12y ago
    Aleynikov worked for a specific trading desk at Goldman-Sachs, which carries out high frequency strategies in some equity markets. High frequency equity trading is the sub industry I'm referring to. Since you're apparently confused about this: Goldman is a large bank. It has many lines of business, same as Microsoft produces many software products. Some of Goldman's business endeavors fall within the US high frequency equities space, but you'd be making an enormous error of scope if you confused one of their high frequency equities desks with their entire business. I call shenanigans on the claim that Aleynikov was single handedly running the trading infrastructure for even a single one of their desks. That's complete nonsense. As for Jim Simons: It's generally believed that the main cause of Renaissance's success is that they have a couple hundred of the world's smartest people all working together. It's not a 'key man' shop at all. (Also: You seem to be suggesting that Simons himself did all the work. The fact is that he spends most of his time smoking cigarettes and handing out wads of cash.)

by FD3SA 12y ago

khyryk 12y ago

> That's why work conditions, salary, stability and prestige are nowhere near comparable industries such as finance, heavy engineering, medicine, law, etc. As a combination or individually? Medicine is about the only one in the list that's strong in all of the listed characteristics. "Heavy engineering", to my knowledge, doesn't pay much more, finance doesn't seem that much more stable, and law certainly has good work conditions for those at the very top, but not for the newbies.

simplemath 12y ago

How did you get "other programmers" as the villain in Aleynikov's disgusting tale? Just wondering.

FD3SA 12y ago
Actually in his case, his worst enemy was himself. He did not accurately value himself within the organization either politically or economically [1]. He thus paid the price. The programmer types were different from the trader types. The trader types were far more alive to the bigger picture, to their context. They knew their worth in the marketplace down to the last penny. They understood the connection between what they did and how much money was made , and they were good at exaggerating the importance of the link. Serge wasn’t like that. He was a little-picture person, a narrow problem solver. “I think he didn’t know his own value,” says the recruiter. [2] 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7577872 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7577872 2. http://cryptome.org/2014/04/goldman-sachs-code-thief.htm http://cryptome.org/2014/04/goldman-sachs-code-thief.htm
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]

auntienomen 12y ago

You should take with a grain of salt any assertions you see that Aleynikov was bringing in billions in revenue. The sub-industry he worked in doesn't see those kinds of numbers from any individual's effort.

FD3SA 12y ago
Please elucidate exactly to which sub-industry Goldman-Sachs belongs. I'm all ears. Last time I checked, banks are the most powerful industry, and GS is the most powerful bank[1]. Aleynikov was single handedly building, deploying, maintaining and updating Goldman-Sach's HFT framework. If you believe that key people like Aleynikov don't make the HFT industry profitable, a certain Medallion Fund and a Dr. James Simons would beg to differ. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzrBurlJUNk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzrBurlJUNk I don't know of any big software companies getting government bailouts after gambling with money they scammed from average citizen . Once you can get away with that, and not have a single executive do jail time, come back to me. Every industry is subservient to the whims of banks. They'll tell you otherwise, but actions speak louder than words.
- auntienomen 12y ago
  Aleynikov worked for a specific trading desk at Goldman-Sachs, which carries out high frequency strategies in some equity markets. High frequency equity trading is the sub industry I'm referring to. Since you're apparently confused about this: Goldman is a large bank. It has many lines of business, same as Microsoft produces many software products. Some of Goldman's business endeavors fall within the US high frequency equities space, but you'd be making an enormous error of scope if you confused one of their high frequency equities desks with their entire business. I call shenanigans on the claim that Aleynikov was single handedly running the trading infrastructure for even a single one of their desks. That's complete nonsense. As for Jim Simons: It's generally believed that the main cause of Renaissance's success is that they have a couple hundred of the world's smartest people all working together. It's not a 'key man' shop at all. (Also: You seem to be suggesting that Simons himself did all the work. The fact is that he spends most of his time smoking cigarettes and handing out wads of cash.)