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Andrew Chen: Do you ever say, "MySpace is sooo ugly?" This blog's for you...

49 points by andrew_null 19y ago

crxnamja 19y ago
myspace is gorgeous.
alaskamiller 19y ago
Why is MySpace popular? Why is trashy tv popular? Why is McDonald's popular? Wait wait wait wait... You mean geeks really don't get what most of average folks want but are snobby shits about it? Wow! Here in the valley that's called echochambering.
- imsteve 19y ago
  I'm kind of glad that myspace is so ridiculously ugly. Design best practice snobs need an abrupt wakeup.
- herdrick 19y ago
  These aren't such unanswerable questions. McDonald's, for example, is popular because it's so cheap and so fast and reasonably wholesome food. Or am I agreeing with you?
- neilc 19y ago
  That just means that the lowest common denominator is, well, low. That doesn't mean that there are lots of business opportunities that don't involve appealing to the MySpace users of the world.
edw519 19y ago
"But the rest of the world is not like us, and that's the problem." That's why analysis is still more important than development. Doesn't matter how slick it is, it HAS to be something people want. If you don't know what that is, ask. I could cite many examples of great products that we loved and nobody bought, but I forgot them already. (That's the whole point.)
- DanielBMarkham 19y ago
  "That's why analysis is still more important than development" Absolutely. In the last ten years, this is the thing missed the most.
- imsteve 19y ago
  I can give you many examples of people not knowing what they want. Better to measure than to ask. Critical difference.
  - edw519 19y ago
    Better to ask first. Problem is that systems analysis is a lost art. People don't know HOW to ask. People know what they want. They just don't know that they know. Here are just a few to the things you have to do (that almost no one does anymore) in order to elicit requirements: - Spend time with users doing what they do, asking questions until you understand how things work. If this means sitting at their desk, following them around their office/factory/route, or wading hip deep in <whatever>, then DO IT. - Ask questions to groups of people at the same time, so they can argue with each other and learn together what's really needed. - Ask lots of "Yes/No" questions. - Ask lots of "On a scale of 1 to 10..." questions. - Ask lots of "What is the probability that ..." questions. - Cover the wall with paper and draw pictures of EVERYTHING. Leave the paper there for all to see for weeks. Let them understand and learn together. - Put every piece of paper they use in their jobs (or personal life) on the wall, so they (and others) can really see what they have to deal with on a daily basis. Not blank sheets, but paper with real data on it. - Identify every data element. How do you know when you're done? Keep asking until there are no more answers. - Feed people while you ask them. (Amazing how smart people get while eating pizza.) - Then (and only then) give them a prototype to play with. (I suppose here is where your "measure" comes in to play.) - Exactly right? No? Keep going until it is. Aside from the prototype, we haven't written a single line of code. Is this hard? Absolutely. Maybe that's why most of us don't do it anymore. Does it work? It you know what you're doing: every time. (Aside: Notice I never mentioned using crap like Rational Rose or UML. That stuff was never meant to help this process. It was meant to make people who don't know what they're doing appear as it they did. Built an industry by paying junior people $50k and billing them out at $250/hour.)
mattmaroon 19y ago
Yes. Yes. I love you. Yes. This is actually a large part of the tech talk I plan on giving on justin.tv. It's a symptom of a much bigger problem in the valley.
umertino 19y ago
Andrew chen I agree, teen market is quite difficult to tap
- copenja 19y ago
  Half the myspace users are over 35: http://www.comscore.com/press/release.asp?press=1019 http://www.comscore.com/press/release.asp?press=1019
  - dcurtis 19y ago
    That is scary.
  - andrewfong 19y ago
    How many are pedophiles?
    - Goladus 19y ago
      Less than half, but more than the number of bogeymen.
  - Goladus 19y ago
    A lot of older people have more generic profiles. Many of them are private, so you never see them anyway. They use the service to connect with old friends and waste time; maybe meet new people too. Younger people are exploring the medium trying to find new ways to express themselves. A lot of what design snobs find bizarre comes from enthusiastic (and often impatient) experimentation.
downer 19y ago
> This is how they want their profiles to look. This doesn't take into consideration that profile layout is a pain in the ass and most people don't want to deal with the mess of CSS. MySpace layouts tend not to be what people want, just what they settle for. As it is, it's too much work to get it the way you want it.
- omouse 19y ago
  It's why there are so many MySpace layout creation websites. If MySpace was well-designed, there would be no need for those other sites.
jmtame 19y ago
Don't put down aesthetics in the name of MySpace. It's simpyl a weak argument to make. I explain here: http://jtame05.wordpress.com/2007/12/01/when-you-grow-up-design-matters/ http://jtame05.wordpress.com/2007/12/01/when-you-grow-up-des...
- kirse 19y ago
  At least Myspace knows how to handle their 404s.

49 points by andrew_null 19y ago

myspace is gorgeous.

Why is MySpace popular? Why is trashy tv popular? Why is McDonald's popular? Wait wait wait wait... You mean geeks really don't get what most of average folks want but are snobby shits about it? Wow! Here in the valley that's called echochambering.

imsteve 19y ago
I'm kind of glad that myspace is so ridiculously ugly. Design best practice snobs need an abrupt wakeup.
herdrick 19y ago
These aren't such unanswerable questions. McDonald's, for example, is popular because it's so cheap and so fast and reasonably wholesome food. Or am I agreeing with you?
neilc 19y ago
That just means that the lowest common denominator is, well, low. That doesn't mean that there are lots of business opportunities that don't involve appealing to the MySpace users of the world.

edw519 19y ago

"But the rest of the world is not like us, and that's the problem." That's why analysis is still more important than development. Doesn't matter how slick it is, it HAS to be something people want. If you don't know what that is, ask. I could cite many examples of great products that we loved and nobody bought, but I forgot them already. (That's the whole point.)

DanielBMarkham 19y ago
"That's why analysis is still more important than development" Absolutely. In the last ten years, this is the thing missed the most.
imsteve 19y ago
I can give you many examples of people not knowing what they want. Better to measure than to ask. Critical difference.
- edw519 19y ago
  Better to ask first. Problem is that systems analysis is a lost art. People don't know HOW to ask. People know what they want. They just don't know that they know. Here are just a few to the things you have to do (that almost no one does anymore) in order to elicit requirements: - Spend time with users doing what they do, asking questions until you understand how things work. If this means sitting at their desk, following them around their office/factory/route, or wading hip deep in <whatever>, then DO IT. - Ask questions to groups of people at the same time, so they can argue with each other and learn together what's really needed. - Ask lots of "Yes/No" questions. - Ask lots of "On a scale of 1 to 10..." questions. - Ask lots of "What is the probability that ..." questions. - Cover the wall with paper and draw pictures of EVERYTHING. Leave the paper there for all to see for weeks. Let them understand and learn together. - Put every piece of paper they use in their jobs (or personal life) on the wall, so they (and others) can really see what they have to deal with on a daily basis. Not blank sheets, but paper with real data on it. - Identify every data element. How do you know when you're done? Keep asking until there are no more answers. - Feed people while you ask them. (Amazing how smart people get while eating pizza.) - Then (and only then) give them a prototype to play with. (I suppose here is where your "measure" comes in to play.) - Exactly right? No? Keep going until it is. Aside from the prototype, we haven't written a single line of code. Is this hard? Absolutely. Maybe that's why most of us don't do it anymore. Does it work? It you know what you're doing: every time. (Aside: Notice I never mentioned using crap like Rational Rose or UML. That stuff was never meant to help this process. It was meant to make people who don't know what they're doing appear as it they did. Built an industry by paying junior people $50k and billing them out at $250/hour.)

mattmaroon 19y ago

Yes. Yes. I love you. Yes. This is actually a large part of the tech talk I plan on giving on justin.tv. It's a symptom of a much bigger problem in the valley.

umertino 19y ago

Andrew chen I agree, teen market is quite difficult to tap

copenja 19y ago
Half the myspace users are over 35: http://www.comscore.com/press/release.asp?press=1019 http://www.comscore.com/press/release.asp?press=1019
- dcurtis 19y ago
  That is scary.
- andrewfong 19y ago
  How many are pedophiles?
  - Goladus 19y ago
    Less than half, but more than the number of bogeymen.
- Goladus 19y ago
  A lot of older people have more generic profiles. Many of them are private, so you never see them anyway. They use the service to connect with old friends and waste time; maybe meet new people too. Younger people are exploring the medium trying to find new ways to express themselves. A lot of what design snobs find bizarre comes from enthusiastic (and often impatient) experimentation.

downer 19y ago

> This is how they want their profiles to look. This doesn't take into consideration that profile layout is a pain in the ass and most people don't want to deal with the mess of CSS. MySpace layouts tend not to be what people want, just what they settle for. As it is, it's too much work to get it the way you want it.

omouse 19y ago
It's why there are so many MySpace layout creation websites. If MySpace was well-designed, there would be no need for those other sites.

jmtame 19y ago

Don't put down aesthetics in the name of MySpace. It's simpyl a weak argument to make. I explain here: http://jtame05.wordpress.com/2007/12/01/when-you-grow-up-design-matters/ http://jtame05.wordpress.com/2007/12/01/when-you-grow-up-des...

kirse 19y ago
At least Myspace knows how to handle their 404s.