10 ms·

Vote all you want. The secret government won’t change

211 points by GuiA 12y ago

cryptolect 12y ago
There's a disconnect between the people who develop policy, and those who enact it. One group is elected, the other is not.
shit_parade 12y ago
>The presidency itself is not a top-down institution, as many people in the public believe, headed by a president who gives orders and causes the bureaucracy to click its heels and salute. What a bizarre world when an academic will say such a thing, almost comical really.
- omeid2 12y ago
  Care to elaborate please? I am honestly trying to understand what is comical about it? Is it the assumption about public opinion inaccurate or the point about government hierarchy?
- calibraxis 12y ago
  Says a lot about forms of "democracy" where people pull a lever every 4 years for their next king. (And even real kings don't have absolute power. There's a lot of people and institutions through whom they must attempt to project their policies.)
- ajkjk 12y ago
  This adds nothing.
- ajcarpy2005 12y ago
  Upon reflection I can see your perspective but I also agree quite completely with the article. It is of course true that the 'President' holds much power but if you break down the semantics, you might as well be saying that people are Patriotic and readily willing to serve their country. (ie. clicking their heels...) What this article is analyzing (the government...and people) is a very complex system and there are many layers. Don't let this article confuse you into thinking that the ideas therein signal a perception that the oval office is not, in a sense, a center of power. Because all available evidence and common sense, as you imply in your comment, points to the obvious fact that the Whitehouse is a center of power in the government and the world. What the article is saying is that there are other centers of power within the government which, evidence strongly suggests, actually challenge the President's authority on certain geopolitical and bureaucratic concerns, and in some cases, actually wield far more impressive levels of capabilities in terms of influence and direct control. And you better believe that these capabilities are being utilized. I would even pin a target on the notion that there are significant operational units (assets) which have limited to non-existent communication and reporting to high-ranking government members. And what sane person even entertains the belief that they know every single activity and segment of the US government? In an organization as staggeringly large as the federal government, there's bound to be plethora of secrets. Some of them are probably pretty benign. Some of them are probably capable of destabilizing the 'united' aspect of government we take for granted. And...really, it's clear to see the fact that the government is not in fact nearly as united as people speak of. This kind of obvious mismatch in mental conception is well-known: cognitive dissonance. Comical; your allegiance to over-simplified models of megalithic civil structural posturing for political gain of power for variously held personal values.
Animats 12y ago
The U.S. President appoints about 3,000 high-level people in the U.S. Government. This includes all the cabinet members, the entire National Security Staff, the directors of the CIA, NSA, DIA, etc. He can fire most of them at will. The Buck Stops Here, as Harry Truman's desk sign used to say. The quality of a president's cabinet appointments determines how well the government functions during their presidency. The problem is, where do you get 3,000 people able to perform at that level? They're usually drawn from the usual suspects. When that's not the case, the result looks like amateur hour. How many people are qualified to be Secretary of State? The pool of people who have been around enough countries and political leaders to operate at that level is small. The role of the White House staff varies from administration to administration. Eisenhower probably had the most effective staff in many decades. He knew how to make a military staff work together, and modeled the White House on that basis. Eisenhower was very good at putting the right person in the right job. (How Eisenhower deployed Montgomery and Patton is a famous example.) None of the recent presidents have had that kind of experience.
- femto 12y ago
  I'd contend that the problem is the "secret" part, rather than the "double government" part. Maybe that's the problem with western governments? They have erroneously interpreted their job to be "running the country", and the typical elected official is not qualified to do this? Perhaps they should cede the running of the country to the public service and recognise that their true role as an elected official is to keep the public service transparent, accountable and honest? The problem with the above is that once a government sacrifices transparency, as most seem to have done, they have no useful purpose and have to resort to (incompetently) trying to run things to justify their existence.
  - tankenmate 12y ago
    In my perspective it is often expediency; it takes a large and sustained effort to redirect a civil service as large as the US, kind of like trying to steer a 400m long container vessel. Here's a look at one of the most extreme bureaucracies the world ever produced, it is the result of expediency and unchecked power combined with ideology over evidence; http://www.galorebot.com/bureaucracy/essay.htm http://www.galorebot.com/bureaucracy/essay.htm Keeping such large organisations in check requires the fortitude to keep hitting your head against a brick wall while also remaining sharp minded and sane; all the while making progress.
yarou 12y ago
It's interesting how many parallels the US government shares with other governments around the world, like Turkey. There is an existence of a "deep state", or "state within a state". I often wonder if a sufficiently sophisticated AI would do a better job of running our government than the system that we have in place. If you think about it, having AI run our government is the next logical step, and a natural evolution. All governmental systems are inhuman systems that self-correct.
- sqrt17 12y ago
  at some point, government analysts will construct a platform that gets lots of data (including both public and private data) shoveled in and produces actionable insights. For those who aren't current, "actionable" means, in the form of, "do this", or "think about doing that". Of course, this system will still be constructed according to the biases and fears of real humans. Most people wouldn't call it an "AI government" because there's already an elected government calling the shots ... to a certain extent.
  - JetSpiegel 12y ago
    Otherwise you get Skynet.
    - sqrt17 12y ago
      My point was, it would be SkyNet, but on one hand fed with the desires of the Intelligence tools industry (need more data on everything) and on the other hand with a front of humans that will act on its behalf with the best of intentions.
  - snowwrestler 12y ago
    > at some point, government analysts will construct a platform that gets lots of data (including both public and private data) shoveled in and produces actionable insights. There are already quite a few platforms for doing this. Constructing and running many of them is the job of the MITRE Corporation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitre_Corporation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitre_Corporation A friend of mine works there, constructing quite complex computer models to estimate the impact of (sometimes very small) changes in government policy or services.
theonemind 12y ago
Well, much of this shadow government consists of the executive branch. Obama is still obviously wholly accountable, as he can likely issue executive orders unconditionally changing the policy and operation of agencies at will. Of course, he has to make good appointments and get reliable people to carry out any semblance of that, and most of his work has to be indirect. But, like the CEO of a large corporation, the job is whatever it takes to get it done, and is judged by the results without regard to the difficulties.
lazyjones 12y ago
Neat theory, but a more plausible explanation for Obama's current policy is that he was simply dishonest in his campaigning. He exploited voters' anxiety about war and surveillance by pretending to be against these things and therefore won the election. This happens all the time, all around the world, voters are gullible and want to believe a good story ("Change"). My other gripe with this article is that it concludes it's the people's responsibility to change the way government is functioning, but if it can't be done through voting, what does the author expect them to do, short of a rebellion? It effectively discourages the reader from voting and suggests we should just give up trying to do anything about the situation.
- mercer 12y ago
  While dishonesty is a plausible explanation too, I think the article's argument makes just as much sense. In fact, I recall the same basic argument brought forward by a Political Science professor here in Holland: because the apparatus of civil servants and experts doesn't really change so much between elections, these people wield much more power than we think they do and policy often stays continuous as a result.
  - pas 12y ago
    Somehow it must be beneficial for the elected officials to keep these non-changing people in charge. Obama was probably simply persuaded by the many-many human faces of the administration currently carrying out the atrocities (War on Drugs, NSA, foreign policy), and focused more on the soft-programs (stimulus, healthcare; and random acts of obama, that largely failed), plus got completely broken and stonewalled by an uncooperative House.
    - davidw 12y ago
      > Somehow it must be beneficial for the elected officials to keep these non-changing people in charge. Yes, because the vast majority of them are simply the bureaucrats that keep things ticking over because they know how to do their jobs.
    - 12y ago
byEngineer 12y ago
The President relying on experts instead of telling them what to do and trusting their expertise as if they will execute what they are told effectively. If you read biographies of great leaders, ie pope John Paul 2nd or President Reagan you will notice common pattern: the burocracy told what to do screaming in utter shock that they are "under attack". The burocrats just needed some time to get adjusted to a new situation where they don't call the shots anymore, but are there to execute the Leaders policy. For example JP2 was famous for totally ignoring his personal security team demands. At the beginning the pope was banned from travel by his own security team as this is "how it has always been". And they were the experts after all. It took them some getting used to new situation where the pope was deciding where he goes, when and how. Obama seems to be a bit weak. He seems to be someone who would rather have someone else make though decisions, so the result can't be blamed on him. With Syria he actually took advise from... putin😁 The problem is the crisis of leadership above anything else.
Joeboy 12y ago
For most of us this is not a problem as we don't get to vote for the US government anyway. As a non-US citizen I am spared the illusion that voting can prevent the US government spying on me, murdering me by drone or imprisoning me without trial. And those are primarily things the US does to non-US citizens.
- lukifer 12y ago
  Most of us in the U.S. don't really get to vote either. There is no anti-drone party, no anti-NSA party, and no anti-Drug-War party: the two dominant parties agree more than they differ, especially when looking at actions rather than rhetoric. Moreover, huge numbers of people are completely disenfranchised if they support the minority party in the wrong district or state. Our democracy isn't completely ineffectual; some good people sneak through now and then, and there is some counter-balance to blatant abuses of power. But it's a far cry from government by/of/for the people. (Incidentally: it's worth nothing that the Constitution repeatedly refers to "person" and not "citizen". I think it is deeply shameful that we do not afford basic human rights protections to persons of all nationalities, as a matter of first principles.)
  - privong 12y ago
    > There is no anti-drone party, no anti-NSA party, and no anti-Drug-War party: the two dominant parties agree more than they differ, especially when looking at actions rather than rhetoric. There is! It isn't one of the big two, but there is a party that is anti-drone, anti-NSA, anti-drug war, etc.: The Libertarian Party[0]. [0] http://www.lp.org http://www.lp.org
    - Istof 12y ago
      Something in-between Obama/Bush and Libertarian Party would be nice
      - privong 12y ago
        I am not sure what you mean – in-between relative to what? The LP is to the left of Obama (e.g., individual rights for social matters such as marriage) and also to the right of Bush/Obama (e.g., taxation).
lotsofmangos 12y ago
I like Douglas Adams take on this: "The President in particular is very much a figurehead - he wields no real power whatsoever. He is apparently chosen by the government, but the qualities he is required to display are not those of leadership but those of finely judged outrage. For this reason the President is always a controversial choice, always an infuriating but fascinating character. His job is not to wield power but to draw attention away from it. On those criteria Zaphod Beeblebrox is one of the most successful Presidents the Galaxy has ever had - he has already spent two of his ten Presidential years in prison for fraud. Very very few people realize that the President and the Government have virtually no power at all, and of these very few people only six know whence ultimate political power is wielded. Most of the others secretly believe that the ultimate decision-making process is handled by a computer. They couldn't be more wrong." Here in the UK, I think that if you want to change home policy, you can do that by voting. However, if you wish to affect the wider economic policy you would do better by getting a job with the Bank of England, and if you want to change UK foreign policy, you get a job with the US government.
femto 12y ago
"Yes Minister" was a 1980s UK series on exactly this topic: the Public Service vs. the Government. It was a satire, but its brilliance was that most of the satire was quite plausible. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes_Minister https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes_Minister
- lotsofmangos 12y ago
  It was partly so plausible because the writers had several moles inside the UK civil service at the time, who fed them information that couldn't be reported without getting into serious legal difficulties, but could be spun into a fictionalised narrative.
- JetSpiegel 12y ago
  Also its spiritual successor for our post-911 world, The Thick of It. Veep was an adaptation for the American market, but it kinda lost its satirical teeth.
  - vixen99 12y ago
    its
    - JetSpiegel 12y ago
      Thanks!
      - lostcolony 12y ago
        ...did that just happen?
        JetSpiegel 12y ago
        I could go on a tirade about nitpicking, but since I was actually wrong, and there were no insults involved, why bother?
modeless 12y ago
http://harvardnsj.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Glennon-Final.pdf http://harvardnsj.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Glennon-Fin... [pdf] This appears to be some or all of the content of the book mentioned in the article. It was published as an article in the Harvard National Security Journal. Very interesting, and I think I agree with the premise that the elected parts of our government exercise less power than we imagine.
- puzzlingcaptcha 12y ago
  The source alleges that if Obama pushed for troop withdrawal, the top staff generals would resign. For someone unfamiliar with US politics, what would happen if he went for that regardless?
  - logfromblammo 12y ago
    It is my understanding that, being military people, they cannot simply walk off the job without orders from their commander to do so. As the PotUS is commander of the entire military, he could prosecute them with formal charges of insubordination, or perhaps demote a stubborn general to major and reassign him to collect grizzly bear poop on Kodiak Island. The withdrawal would happen, but the military would not support that particular president on anything for the rest of his tenure, because they're a good ol' boy's club. Obama would have to clear out all colonels, generals, and admirals, and promote replacements from the lower ranks based purely on merit to get any sort of cooperation back, and that would be a colossal undertaking. Secret Service protection detail would be pissed, because there would be insider threats multiplying everywhere.
aryehof 12y ago
Most western countries are run by a civil service, typically within a framework of legislation enacted by governments passed. Perhaps here, we are just being reminded that we should (unfortunately) consider the civil service as being a fourth component to a modern western democracy alongside the legislature, executive and judiciary. A separate animal so to speak from the executive branch to which it would normally belong. That so much authority is devolved to these often opaque and unaccountable institutions by the executive is something all should be wary of. Particularly in the USA in regards to national security, there is a climate of fear and intimidation about questioning any official policy.
frozenport 12y ago
Pragmatically, this means the only way to change the government is to join it?
- mercer 12y ago
  The storyline involving the young, ambitious, and I'd say mostly 'well-intentioned' politician Tommy Carcetti in season 3 of The Wire gives an interesting insight in how difficult it (probably) is to join the government apparatus without turning into the thing you meant to fight.
- OscarCunningham 12y ago
  Hmmm... The people who actually call the shots, the head of the NSA for example, what were their career paths?
  - frozenport 12y ago
    Looks like they all were career military.
- collyw 12y ago
  Is that not what Obama promised to do?
chton 12y ago
I'm sorry, but any theory that has "I think the American people are deluded" as an important point should have a lot of other evidence to it. This article is lacking that. One thing the theory seems to gloss over is that it assumes dishonesty of current and past presidents. If the president wielded no real power, wouldn't at least one of them have said something about it? Out of 44 men elected for their vision and mentality, not one was brave enough to break the cycle of lies? And why would some, like Teddy Roosevelt, stand up for a second term after a hiatus if they didn't have any real power to change policy? There are better explanations for the continuity in policy and the differences between candidate-Obama and elect-Obama. One is that they base their viewpoints on different information. As president, Obama has to base policy on classified information, secret dealings made by predecessors and staff, corporate interests, and in general "the big picture". As a campaigner, he wasn't burdened by any of those and could provide an idealistic view. At least we have evidence that all of these exist.
- puzzlingcaptcha 12y ago
  The article reads a bit like "buy my book to learn more!", but as someone pointed out below, that seems to be the bulk of the source material: http://harvardnsj.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Glennon-Final.pdf http://harvardnsj.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Glennon-Fin...
  - chton 12y ago
    I'll have to save that paper for later and see if he has some decent sources. If he does have proper evidence, maybe the theory has merit. On the other hand, if there was a 'smoking gun', it would be mentioned on the first page and in every article about it.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- A1kmm 12y ago
  Or less charitably, candidate-Obama said things he didn't believe in that would get him elected, and elect-Obama acted based on his beliefs. I agree that the head of the executive and the legislature could change things if they wanted to - the problem is lack of will by the leaders. Even irrational tough on crime / terrorism / communism / the-latest-bogieman rhetoric wins more votes than civil rights rhetoric, at least until the majority feel adversely affected by the lack of rights. In addition, supporting large government transfers to private sectors like defence and national security brings in more campaign funds than supporting rights for natural people.
jbb555 12y ago
I don't necessarily agree with all of this analysis. I think the more likely reasons are that it's very easy to be against the war when you are not in power. But once you are in power it's not sufficient to be against it, you need to work out what you need to do instead. And then you run into the reality that even though you don't agree with the war, the previous government did it for reasons. And even if the response is not what you would ideally have chosen many of those reasons are still valid.
brazzy 12y ago
In Japan, the concept of beaurocrats who hold the true power to determine policy, with elected officials being unable to make effective lasting changes, has been around and part of public discussion for decades. I don't think they've come up with a solution, but then the political landscape is even more fossilized than the one in the USA.
tomelders 12y ago
It's been a saying in the UK for decades; "The Civil Service runs the country".
whoisthemachine 12y ago
I think that this is somewhat correct. Obviously, I don't have the evidence and haven't done the research he has done (over 800 footnotes - how many sources?!). I do however think it could be more nuanced than what he says - it may just be that the bureaucracy changes course much more slowly than the presidency or congress or state governments change - so it takes much more time for those institutions to truly catch up with the public sentiment. Of course, once the bureaucracy begins to actively fight changing with public sentiment is when the problems begin. Those institutions that do should probably be "reset", i.e. disbanded and reformed with a better founding base.
spacemanmatt 12y ago
Don't forget, when members of the military-industrial complex come out against "big government," what they really mean is they don't want any resistance from the elected government. Not that they get much resistance to start with.
ArtDev 12y ago
Perhaps, when one is elected president, they take you to a dark theater and show you unreleased footage of the Kennedy assassination from different angles!
- cmdrfred 12y ago
  -Doug Stanhope
Zigurd 12y ago
This got off the front page fast. Anything that points to the conclusion that the US is unrepresentative of the governed is contrary to the dogma.
naturalethic 12y ago
emma goldman
tripzilch 12y ago
Anyone remember that quote from The Cube? There is no conspiracy Nobody is in charge It's a headless blunder operating under the illusion of a master plan. It's only half wrong ;-) (It's been a while since I've seen that film so I forgot, but they apparently talk a lot more about this topic, about half the quotes on this page: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Cube_%28film%29 http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Cube_%28film%29 )

211 points by GuiA 12y ago

There's a disconnect between the people who develop policy, and those who enact it. One group is elected, the other is not.

shit_parade 12y ago

>The presidency itself is not a top-down institution, as many people in the public believe, headed by a president who gives orders and causes the bureaucracy to click its heels and salute. What a bizarre world when an academic will say such a thing, almost comical really.

omeid2 12y ago
Care to elaborate please? I am honestly trying to understand what is comical about it? Is it the assumption about public opinion inaccurate or the point about government hierarchy?
calibraxis 12y ago
Says a lot about forms of "democracy" where people pull a lever every 4 years for their next king. (And even real kings don't have absolute power. There's a lot of people and institutions through whom they must attempt to project their policies.)
ajkjk 12y ago
This adds nothing.
ajcarpy2005 12y ago
Upon reflection I can see your perspective but I also agree quite completely with the article. It is of course true that the 'President' holds much power but if you break down the semantics, you might as well be saying that people are Patriotic and readily willing to serve their country. (ie. clicking their heels...) What this article is analyzing (the government...and people) is a very complex system and there are many layers. Don't let this article confuse you into thinking that the ideas therein signal a perception that the oval office is not, in a sense, a center of power. Because all available evidence and common sense, as you imply in your comment, points to the obvious fact that the Whitehouse is a center of power in the government and the world. What the article is saying is that there are other centers of power within the government which, evidence strongly suggests, actually challenge the President's authority on certain geopolitical and bureaucratic concerns, and in some cases, actually wield far more impressive levels of capabilities in terms of influence and direct control. And you better believe that these capabilities are being utilized. I would even pin a target on the notion that there are significant operational units (assets) which have limited to non-existent communication and reporting to high-ranking government members. And what sane person even entertains the belief that they know every single activity and segment of the US government? In an organization as staggeringly large as the federal government, there's bound to be plethora of secrets. Some of them are probably pretty benign. Some of them are probably capable of destabilizing the 'united' aspect of government we take for granted. And...really, it's clear to see the fact that the government is not in fact nearly as united as people speak of. This kind of obvious mismatch in mental conception is well-known: cognitive dissonance. Comical; your allegiance to over-simplified models of megalithic civil structural posturing for political gain of power for variously held personal values.

Animats 12y ago

The U.S. President appoints about 3,000 high-level people in the U.S. Government. This includes all the cabinet members, the entire National Security Staff, the directors of the CIA, NSA, DIA, etc. He can fire most of them at will. The Buck Stops Here, as Harry Truman's desk sign used to say. The quality of a president's cabinet appointments determines how well the government functions during their presidency. The problem is, where do you get 3,000 people able to perform at that level? They're usually drawn from the usual suspects. When that's not the case, the result looks like amateur hour. How many people are qualified to be Secretary of State? The pool of people who have been around enough countries and political leaders to operate at that level is small. The role of the White House staff varies from administration to administration. Eisenhower probably had the most effective staff in many decades. He knew how to make a military staff work together, and modeled the White House on that basis. Eisenhower was very good at putting the right person in the right job. (How Eisenhower deployed Montgomery and Patton is a famous example.) None of the recent presidents have had that kind of experience.

femto 12y ago
I'd contend that the problem is the "secret" part, rather than the "double government" part. Maybe that's the problem with western governments? They have erroneously interpreted their job to be "running the country", and the typical elected official is not qualified to do this? Perhaps they should cede the running of the country to the public service and recognise that their true role as an elected official is to keep the public service transparent, accountable and honest? The problem with the above is that once a government sacrifices transparency, as most seem to have done, they have no useful purpose and have to resort to (incompetently) trying to run things to justify their existence.
- tankenmate 12y ago
  In my perspective it is often expediency; it takes a large and sustained effort to redirect a civil service as large as the US, kind of like trying to steer a 400m long container vessel. Here's a look at one of the most extreme bureaucracies the world ever produced, it is the result of expediency and unchecked power combined with ideology over evidence; http://www.galorebot.com/bureaucracy/essay.htm http://www.galorebot.com/bureaucracy/essay.htm Keeping such large organisations in check requires the fortitude to keep hitting your head against a brick wall while also remaining sharp minded and sane; all the while making progress.

yarou 12y ago

It's interesting how many parallels the US government shares with other governments around the world, like Turkey. There is an existence of a "deep state", or "state within a state". I often wonder if a sufficiently sophisticated AI would do a better job of running our government than the system that we have in place. If you think about it, having AI run our government is the next logical step, and a natural evolution. All governmental systems are inhuman systems that self-correct.

sqrt17 12y ago
at some point, government analysts will construct a platform that gets lots of data (including both public and private data) shoveled in and produces actionable insights. For those who aren't current, "actionable" means, in the form of, "do this", or "think about doing that". Of course, this system will still be constructed according to the biases and fears of real humans. Most people wouldn't call it an "AI government" because there's already an elected government calling the shots ... to a certain extent.
- JetSpiegel 12y ago
  Otherwise you get Skynet.
  - sqrt17 12y ago
    My point was, it would be SkyNet, but on one hand fed with the desires of the Intelligence tools industry (need more data on everything) and on the other hand with a front of humans that will act on its behalf with the best of intentions.
- snowwrestler 12y ago
  > at some point, government analysts will construct a platform that gets lots of data (including both public and private data) shoveled in and produces actionable insights. There are already quite a few platforms for doing this. Constructing and running many of them is the job of the MITRE Corporation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitre_Corporation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitre_Corporation A friend of mine works there, constructing quite complex computer models to estimate the impact of (sometimes very small) changes in government policy or services.

theonemind 12y ago

Well, much of this shadow government consists of the executive branch. Obama is still obviously wholly accountable, as he can likely issue executive orders unconditionally changing the policy and operation of agencies at will. Of course, he has to make good appointments and get reliable people to carry out any semblance of that, and most of his work has to be indirect. But, like the CEO of a large corporation, the job is whatever it takes to get it done, and is judged by the results without regard to the difficulties.

lazyjones 12y ago

Neat theory, but a more plausible explanation for Obama's current policy is that he was simply dishonest in his campaigning. He exploited voters' anxiety about war and surveillance by pretending to be against these things and therefore won the election. This happens all the time, all around the world, voters are gullible and want to believe a good story ("Change"). My other gripe with this article is that it concludes it's the people's responsibility to change the way government is functioning, but if it can't be done through voting, what does the author expect them to do, short of a rebellion? It effectively discourages the reader from voting and suggests we should just give up trying to do anything about the situation.

mercer 12y ago
While dishonesty is a plausible explanation too, I think the article's argument makes just as much sense. In fact, I recall the same basic argument brought forward by a Political Science professor here in Holland: because the apparatus of civil servants and experts doesn't really change so much between elections, these people wield much more power than we think they do and policy often stays continuous as a result.
- pas 12y ago
  Somehow it must be beneficial for the elected officials to keep these non-changing people in charge. Obama was probably simply persuaded by the many-many human faces of the administration currently carrying out the atrocities (War on Drugs, NSA, foreign policy), and focused more on the soft-programs (stimulus, healthcare; and random acts of obama, that largely failed), plus got completely broken and stonewalled by an uncooperative House.
  - davidw 12y ago
    > Somehow it must be beneficial for the elected officials to keep these non-changing people in charge. Yes, because the vast majority of them are simply the bureaucrats that keep things ticking over because they know how to do their jobs.
  - 12y ago

byEngineer 12y ago

The President relying on experts instead of telling them what to do and trusting their expertise as if they will execute what they are told effectively. If you read biographies of great leaders, ie pope John Paul 2nd or President Reagan you will notice common pattern: the burocracy told what to do screaming in utter shock that they are "under attack". The burocrats just needed some time to get adjusted to a new situation where they don't call the shots anymore, but are there to execute the Leaders policy. For example JP2 was famous for totally ignoring his personal security team demands. At the beginning the pope was banned from travel by his own security team as this is "how it has always been". And they were the experts after all. It took them some getting used to new situation where the pope was deciding where he goes, when and how. Obama seems to be a bit weak. He seems to be someone who would rather have someone else make though decisions, so the result can't be blamed on him. With Syria he actually took advise from... putin😁 The problem is the crisis of leadership above anything else.

Joeboy 12y ago

For most of us this is not a problem as we don't get to vote for the US government anyway. As a non-US citizen I am spared the illusion that voting can prevent the US government spying on me, murdering me by drone or imprisoning me without trial. And those are primarily things the US does to non-US citizens.

lukifer 12y ago
Most of us in the U.S. don't really get to vote either. There is no anti-drone party, no anti-NSA party, and no anti-Drug-War party: the two dominant parties agree more than they differ, especially when looking at actions rather than rhetoric. Moreover, huge numbers of people are completely disenfranchised if they support the minority party in the wrong district or state. Our democracy isn't completely ineffectual; some good people sneak through now and then, and there is some counter-balance to blatant abuses of power. But it's a far cry from government by/of/for the people. (Incidentally: it's worth nothing that the Constitution repeatedly refers to "person" and not "citizen". I think it is deeply shameful that we do not afford basic human rights protections to persons of all nationalities, as a matter of first principles.)
- privong 12y ago
  > There is no anti-drone party, no anti-NSA party, and no anti-Drug-War party: the two dominant parties agree more than they differ, especially when looking at actions rather than rhetoric. There is! It isn't one of the big two, but there is a party that is anti-drone, anti-NSA, anti-drug war, etc.: The Libertarian Party[0]. [0] http://www.lp.org http://www.lp.org
  - Istof 12y ago
    Something in-between Obama/Bush and Libertarian Party would be nice
    - privong 12y ago
      I am not sure what you mean – in-between relative to what? The LP is to the left of Obama (e.g., individual rights for social matters such as marriage) and also to the right of Bush/Obama (e.g., taxation).

lotsofmangos 12y ago

I like Douglas Adams take on this: "The President in particular is very much a figurehead - he wields no real power whatsoever. He is apparently chosen by the government, but the qualities he is required to display are not those of leadership but those of finely judged outrage. For this reason the President is always a controversial choice, always an infuriating but fascinating character. His job is not to wield power but to draw attention away from it. On those criteria Zaphod Beeblebrox is one of the most successful Presidents the Galaxy has ever had - he has already spent two of his ten Presidential years in prison for fraud. Very very few people realize that the President and the Government have virtually no power at all, and of these very few people only six know whence ultimate political power is wielded. Most of the others secretly believe that the ultimate decision-making process is handled by a computer. They couldn't be more wrong." Here in the UK, I think that if you want to change home policy, you can do that by voting. However, if you wish to affect the wider economic policy you would do better by getting a job with the Bank of England, and if you want to change UK foreign policy, you get a job with the US government.

femto 12y ago

"Yes Minister" was a 1980s UK series on exactly this topic: the Public Service vs. the Government. It was a satire, but its brilliance was that most of the satire was quite plausible. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes_Minister https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes_Minister

lotsofmangos 12y ago
It was partly so plausible because the writers had several moles inside the UK civil service at the time, who fed them information that couldn't be reported without getting into serious legal difficulties, but could be spun into a fictionalised narrative.
JetSpiegel 12y ago
Also its spiritual successor for our post-911 world, The Thick of It. Veep was an adaptation for the American market, but it kinda lost its satirical teeth.
- vixen99 12y ago
  its
  - JetSpiegel 12y ago
    Thanks!
    - lostcolony 12y ago
      ...did that just happen?
      - JetSpiegel 12y ago
        I could go on a tirade about nitpicking, but since I was actually wrong, and there were no insults involved, why bother?

modeless 12y ago

http://harvardnsj.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Glennon-Final.pdf http://harvardnsj.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Glennon-Fin... [pdf] This appears to be some or all of the content of the book mentioned in the article. It was published as an article in the Harvard National Security Journal. Very interesting, and I think I agree with the premise that the elected parts of our government exercise less power than we imagine.

puzzlingcaptcha 12y ago
The source alleges that if Obama pushed for troop withdrawal, the top staff generals would resign. For someone unfamiliar with US politics, what would happen if he went for that regardless?
- logfromblammo 12y ago
  It is my understanding that, being military people, they cannot simply walk off the job without orders from their commander to do so. As the PotUS is commander of the entire military, he could prosecute them with formal charges of insubordination, or perhaps demote a stubborn general to major and reassign him to collect grizzly bear poop on Kodiak Island. The withdrawal would happen, but the military would not support that particular president on anything for the rest of his tenure, because they're a good ol' boy's club. Obama would have to clear out all colonels, generals, and admirals, and promote replacements from the lower ranks based purely on merit to get any sort of cooperation back, and that would be a colossal undertaking. Secret Service protection detail would be pissed, because there would be insider threats multiplying everywhere.

aryehof 12y ago

Most western countries are run by a civil service, typically within a framework of legislation enacted by governments passed. Perhaps here, we are just being reminded that we should (unfortunately) consider the civil service as being a fourth component to a modern western democracy alongside the legislature, executive and judiciary. A separate animal so to speak from the executive branch to which it would normally belong. That so much authority is devolved to these often opaque and unaccountable institutions by the executive is something all should be wary of. Particularly in the USA in regards to national security, there is a climate of fear and intimidation about questioning any official policy.

frozenport 12y ago

Pragmatically, this means the only way to change the government is to join it?

mercer 12y ago
The storyline involving the young, ambitious, and I'd say mostly 'well-intentioned' politician Tommy Carcetti in season 3 of The Wire gives an interesting insight in how difficult it (probably) is to join the government apparatus without turning into the thing you meant to fight.
OscarCunningham 12y ago
Hmmm... The people who actually call the shots, the head of the NSA for example, what were their career paths?
- frozenport 12y ago
  Looks like they all were career military.
collyw 12y ago
Is that not what Obama promised to do?

chton 12y ago

I'm sorry, but any theory that has "I think the American people are deluded" as an important point should have a lot of other evidence to it. This article is lacking that. One thing the theory seems to gloss over is that it assumes dishonesty of current and past presidents. If the president wielded no real power, wouldn't at least one of them have said something about it? Out of 44 men elected for their vision and mentality, not one was brave enough to break the cycle of lies? And why would some, like Teddy Roosevelt, stand up for a second term after a hiatus if they didn't have any real power to change policy? There are better explanations for the continuity in policy and the differences between candidate-Obama and elect-Obama. One is that they base their viewpoints on different information. As president, Obama has to base policy on classified information, secret dealings made by predecessors and staff, corporate interests, and in general "the big picture". As a campaigner, he wasn't burdened by any of those and could provide an idealistic view. At least we have evidence that all of these exist.

puzzlingcaptcha 12y ago
The article reads a bit like "buy my book to learn more!", but as someone pointed out below, that seems to be the bulk of the source material: http://harvardnsj.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Glennon-Final.pdf http://harvardnsj.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Glennon-Fin...
- chton 12y ago
  I'll have to save that paper for later and see if he has some decent sources. If he does have proper evidence, maybe the theory has merit. On the other hand, if there was a 'smoking gun', it would be mentioned on the first page and in every article about it.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
A1kmm 12y ago
Or less charitably, candidate-Obama said things he didn't believe in that would get him elected, and elect-Obama acted based on his beliefs. I agree that the head of the executive and the legislature could change things if they wanted to - the problem is lack of will by the leaders. Even irrational tough on crime / terrorism / communism / the-latest-bogieman rhetoric wins more votes than civil rights rhetoric, at least until the majority feel adversely affected by the lack of rights. In addition, supporting large government transfers to private sectors like defence and national security brings in more campaign funds than supporting rights for natural people.

jbb555 12y ago

I don't necessarily agree with all of this analysis. I think the more likely reasons are that it's very easy to be against the war when you are not in power. But once you are in power it's not sufficient to be against it, you need to work out what you need to do instead. And then you run into the reality that even though you don't agree with the war, the previous government did it for reasons. And even if the response is not what you would ideally have chosen many of those reasons are still valid.

brazzy 12y ago

In Japan, the concept of beaurocrats who hold the true power to determine policy, with elected officials being unable to make effective lasting changes, has been around and part of public discussion for decades. I don't think they've come up with a solution, but then the political landscape is even more fossilized than the one in the USA.

tomelders 12y ago

It's been a saying in the UK for decades; "The Civil Service runs the country".

whoisthemachine 12y ago

I think that this is somewhat correct. Obviously, I don't have the evidence and haven't done the research he has done (over 800 footnotes - how many sources?!). I do however think it could be more nuanced than what he says - it may just be that the bureaucracy changes course much more slowly than the presidency or congress or state governments change - so it takes much more time for those institutions to truly catch up with the public sentiment. Of course, once the bureaucracy begins to actively fight changing with public sentiment is when the problems begin. Those institutions that do should probably be "reset", i.e. disbanded and reformed with a better founding base.

spacemanmatt 12y ago

Don't forget, when members of the military-industrial complex come out against "big government," what they really mean is they don't want any resistance from the elected government. Not that they get much resistance to start with.

ArtDev 12y ago

Perhaps, when one is elected president, they take you to a dark theater and show you unreleased footage of the Kennedy assassination from different angles!

cmdrfred 12y ago
-Doug Stanhope

Zigurd 12y ago

This got off the front page fast. Anything that points to the conclusion that the US is unrepresentative of the governed is contrary to the dogma.

naturalethic 12y ago

emma goldman

tripzilch 12y ago

Anyone remember that quote from The Cube? There is no conspiracy Nobody is in charge It's a headless blunder operating under the illusion of a master plan. It's only half wrong ;-) (It's been a while since I've seen that film so I forgot, but they apparently talk a lot more about this topic, about half the quotes on this page: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Cube_%28film%29 http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Cube_%28film%29 )