7 ms·

Here's another data point confirming the "regular world" issues you mention: http://recode.net/2014/10/17/its-hard-out-there-for-a-sex-toy-entrepreneur/ http://

Here's another data point confirming the "regular world" issues you mention: http://recode.net/2014/10/17/its-hard-out-there-for-a-sex-toy-entrepreneur/ http://recode.net/2014/10/17/its-hard-out-there-for-a-sex-to...

couchand 12y ago
Rybchin said she suspects it has something to do with tech being dominated by men, who might be nervous about working with a sex-toy startup: “All these companies are run by men, and they don’t appreciate a woman’s pleasure.” I don't know whether this really is the underlying issue, but damn, it's unfortunate how plausible it is. And the reaction from Stripe to the reporter's request for comment all but confirms.
- itengelhardt 12y ago
  IMHO the problem is not that men "don't appreciate a woman's pleasure" - that is some serious bullshit in my opinion. Most men love it when their SO enjoys sex. The problem (to me) is the criminalization of porn and prostitution in the US. Just think about what kind of outrage it would cause if Stripe had a single prostitute or porn website use their service to receive payments. (For the sake of argument assume the prostitute is located in a jurisdiction that does not prohibit the practice, IIRC it is allowed in parts of Nevada) Now Stripe gets flack for being overly cautious - there's just no way to do this without provoking a shit storm from one group.
  - sudokent 12y ago
    As someone who is trying to a create a new, unique, non-janky, adult website I have learned a lot in the last 10 months. And I have never worked in this industry so it has been a serious learning experience. The biggest issue for me has been the banks. My assumption is that Stripe and other players would be "ok" accepting payments from "High Risk" merchants. But they cannot, their partner bank will not allow it. I later found an article by Cindy Gallop raging against this. http://www.inc.com/welcome.html?destination=http://www.inc.com/chris-beier-and-daniel-wolfman/venture-capital-cindy-gallop-make-love-not-porn.html http://www.inc.com/welcome.html?destination=http://www.inc.c... "A whole range of banks turned us down, including the startup banks, Silicon Valley Bank, Square 1 Bank. We finally got a banking account at CHASE, and we were extremely relieved, thrilled to get a check book that said Make Love Not Porn on it. And so, when... I began encountering enormous problems putting a payments infrastructure into place, because we are what the world deems adult content, we couldn't work with PayPal, couldn't work with Amazon, couldn't work with Google Checkout, couldn't work with any of the main merchant partner gateways. So, we thought, let's go back to CHASE, we have a business banking account there, let's apply for a commercial account. Unfortunately, that application surfaced the nature of our business within higher levels at CHASE. And it resulted in a meeting with a more senior guy, who essentially said to us, not only can we not give you a commercial account, but you now need to close your business bank account and take your business away, because we can't handle it." I had a conversation about this over on Reddit that was fairly interesting. https://www.reddit.com/r/Entrepreneur/comments/2co0r6/anyone_need_a_stripe_or_balancedpayments_but_for/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Entrepreneur/comments/2co0r6/anyone...
    - tiagotalbuquerq 12y ago
      she would stop crying and use cryptocurrency.
      - sudokent 12y ago
        I don't believe that BTC has enough market penetration to solve her problem. When I've interviewed potential users concerning my product, the response has been "Isn't Bitcoin a scam? I saw on the news it is a scam" "I want to just use my CC" "What is Bitcoin?" That said, I still will launch with BTC support. Because I believed the hype and coded the solution before doing interviews...sigh
        kordless 12y ago
        I've been in the crypto-currency scene for a year now and I can say definitively that early adopter passion is giving way to healthy (and normal) market skepticism as the market becomes more aware of the technologies. It's atypical of the way any market evolves and how it evolves over time. Not sure why we keep expecting Bitcoin to go from zero use to global use in a matter of a few years... The porn industry has, time and time again, used new technologies to overcome limitations of the medium by which they do business. I do think crypto-currencies play a part in that, especially when considering the opportunities presented by a global marketplace. Better you can sell to anyone anywhere with no fees, instead of being locked to a given region because of credit card number, or cost structure because of higher risk transactions.
        tormeh 12y ago
        BTC is an investment pyramid scheme, but an entirely legit transaction technology. Just be sure to exchange the BTC back into normal money fairly quickly, as it's neither a secure nor stable store of value.
        cassgames 12y ago
        My experience of accepting donations over 3 months on my site: a handful of donations via Paypal, zero donations with BTC. UPD: doesn't matter though, I'd still implement BTC if I had to do it again. It didn't take much time and was a really interesting experiment. I do believe it's the future of Internet payments.
  - rcfox 12y ago
    > The problem (to me) is the criminalization of porn and prostitution in the US. Porn is illegal in the US?
    - durkie 12y ago
      It's not ouright illegal, but it's becoming more and more onerous to work in the adult industry because of things like this: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/05/07/the-banks-war-on-porn.html http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/05/07/the-banks-w...
    - JetSpiegel 12y ago
      IANAL(hehehe), but prostitution is illegal, but if you film it and sell it for profit than it's legal.
    - itengelhardt 12y ago
      You are right. I should have said "stigmatization".
      - cindygallop 12y ago
        We at MakeLoveNotPorn are working to change that. My piece for the UK Independent on 'It's Not That Porn Degrades Women, It's That Business Degrades Porn': http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/its-not-that-porn-degrades-women-its-that-business-degrades-porn-8475620.html http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/its-not-that-por...
  - srybchin 12y ago
    You are rare because most men don't understand the first thing about a woman's pleasure. Regardless, as an adult retailer, we don't have anything to do with porn or prostitution. Stripe and their bank shouldn't put all adult businesses into 1 box.
- tormeh 12y ago
  I think men are just wary of being seen as creeps. At a recent job search lecture at my uni we were told to never have a picture on your CV, with this as example of how it goes wrong: "Let's say you're a beautiful woman and you send a company your CV with pic on it. Now, the reviewer of your CV is male and if he asks you in for an interview the other employees at the company might suggest he did it because of the way you look. The reviewer will avoid this awkward situation by throwing your CV in the trash. Do not have a picture on your CV." Basically, the expectations of a modern man's sexuality are pretty fucked up and contradictory and most prefer to avoid the entire thing in public.
  - ufmace 12y ago
    Especially so with something as big and public as backing or working with a sex toy company. No matter what way you go with it, somebody's going to try to jump down your throat. Often several different groups, for contradictory reasons. Is it any wonder that most men, and anybody whose job involves making sure your company isn't the target of a negative media frenzy, doesn't want to touch this stuff with a 10-foot pole?
    - tormeh 12y ago
      You know, it just hit me that having an all-female company would be really advantageous in this way. The grass is always greener etc. but from this side of the fence it looks like it makes you bulletproof to this kind of things.
      - cindygallop 12y ago
        Alas no, but I can tell you that many of the entrepreneurs doing really interesting things in this space are female :)
    - goatforce5 12y ago
      Interestingly, the public perception that you're tainted can make your company a good investment for the savvy (/thick-skinned) investor: http://www.canadianbusiness.com/investing/investing-in-sin-stocks/ http://www.canadianbusiness.com/investing/investing-in-sin-s... Since a lot of people wont touch sex (or tobacco, oil, military, etc.) investments, you can get these at a discount compared to other companies with similar numbers but in a more mainstream category.
- pc 12y ago
  I work at Stripe. Some details in the article aren't very accurate. But, more broadly, we actually work hard to push against the rules in many cases. (Cindy Gallop, mentioned earlier in the thread, can attest to this -- we spent ages trying to figure out a way to accept payments for her startup.)
  - sudokent 12y ago
    Hi Pc, Do you think BTC or Stellar will help put downward pressure on the pricing model that Banks currently use for "High Risk" Merchants? My rate is essentially 15% because I'm a startup and my volume is so low.
  - selmnoo 12y ago
    In the end Stripe could not work with her or other startups that feature "a naked person" on the product they're selling (the article seems to claim), is that correct? I'm assuming then pay-for-porn sties are not permitted business with Stripe either?
    - sudokent 12y ago
      They are not, anything classified as "High Risk" cannot be serviced by Stripe, Balanced, Braintree, etc. Again, from my research, it is because the partner banks will not allow them to.
      - selmnoo 12y ago
        Hm, okay. Though, it's not clear to me why porn sites en masse would be classified as "High Risk"? Are you sure this is always the case? How are current popular porn sites doing this? And, now that Stripe is quite big, don't they have some leverage over the banks to be able to say they do want porn sites et al. to be able to work with Stripe?
        sudokent 12y ago
        That makes two of us! Porn en masse shouldn't be, but it is. As for Stripe's size, they are a tiny, tiny drop in the bucket compared to the world markets. Heck compared to a U.S based hedge fund they'd be tiny. I'm guessing they have very little leverage.
- bilbo0s 12y ago
  She's trying to fix the wrong problem. The men in charge of those businesses don't care what you sell. They only care not to get in trouble with the businesses they work with up the line. She should make her business acceptable to the banks... and I guarantee the tech companies will be HAPPY to take her money.
  - cindygallop 12y ago
    Um - I've been battling the 'no adult content' clause for several years now, and unfortunately I can tell you that's not the case. I can't even open a business bank account for http://makelovenotporn.com/ http://makelovenotporn.com/ - I've been turned down by everyone including the startup banks (I met with both Silicon Valley Bank and Square One Bank and they refused to let us bank with them). This is the post I had to write to our members on 'Why We Make It So Hard For You To Give Us Your Money': http://talkabout.makelovenotporn.tv/2013/07/30/why-we-make-it-so-hard-for-you-to-give-us-your-money/ http://talkabout.makelovenotporn.tv/2013/07/30/why-we-make-i...
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

couchand 12y ago

Rybchin said she suspects it has something to do with tech being dominated by men, who might be nervous about working with a sex-toy startup: “All these companies are run by men, and they don’t appreciate a woman’s pleasure.” I don't know whether this really is the underlying issue, but damn, it's unfortunate how plausible it is. And the reaction from Stripe to the reporter's request for comment all but confirms.

itengelhardt 12y ago
IMHO the problem is not that men "don't appreciate a woman's pleasure" - that is some serious bullshit in my opinion. Most men love it when their SO enjoys sex. The problem (to me) is the criminalization of porn and prostitution in the US. Just think about what kind of outrage it would cause if Stripe had a single prostitute or porn website use their service to receive payments. (For the sake of argument assume the prostitute is located in a jurisdiction that does not prohibit the practice, IIRC it is allowed in parts of Nevada) Now Stripe gets flack for being overly cautious - there's just no way to do this without provoking a shit storm from one group.
- sudokent 12y ago
  As someone who is trying to a create a new, unique, non-janky, adult website I have learned a lot in the last 10 months. And I have never worked in this industry so it has been a serious learning experience. The biggest issue for me has been the banks. My assumption is that Stripe and other players would be "ok" accepting payments from "High Risk" merchants. But they cannot, their partner bank will not allow it. I later found an article by Cindy Gallop raging against this. http://www.inc.com/welcome.html?destination=http://www.inc.com/chris-beier-and-daniel-wolfman/venture-capital-cindy-gallop-make-love-not-porn.html http://www.inc.com/welcome.html?destination=http://www.inc.c... "A whole range of banks turned us down, including the startup banks, Silicon Valley Bank, Square 1 Bank. We finally got a banking account at CHASE, and we were extremely relieved, thrilled to get a check book that said Make Love Not Porn on it. And so, when... I began encountering enormous problems putting a payments infrastructure into place, because we are what the world deems adult content, we couldn't work with PayPal, couldn't work with Amazon, couldn't work with Google Checkout, couldn't work with any of the main merchant partner gateways. So, we thought, let's go back to CHASE, we have a business banking account there, let's apply for a commercial account. Unfortunately, that application surfaced the nature of our business within higher levels at CHASE. And it resulted in a meeting with a more senior guy, who essentially said to us, not only can we not give you a commercial account, but you now need to close your business bank account and take your business away, because we can't handle it." I had a conversation about this over on Reddit that was fairly interesting. https://www.reddit.com/r/Entrepreneur/comments/2co0r6/anyone_need_a_stripe_or_balancedpayments_but_for/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Entrepreneur/comments/2co0r6/anyone...
  - tiagotalbuquerq 12y ago
    she would stop crying and use cryptocurrency.
    - sudokent 12y ago
      I don't believe that BTC has enough market penetration to solve her problem. When I've interviewed potential users concerning my product, the response has been "Isn't Bitcoin a scam? I saw on the news it is a scam" "I want to just use my CC" "What is Bitcoin?" That said, I still will launch with BTC support. Because I believed the hype and coded the solution before doing interviews...sigh
      - kordless 12y ago
        I've been in the crypto-currency scene for a year now and I can say definitively that early adopter passion is giving way to healthy (and normal) market skepticism as the market becomes more aware of the technologies. It's atypical of the way any market evolves and how it evolves over time. Not sure why we keep expecting Bitcoin to go from zero use to global use in a matter of a few years... The porn industry has, time and time again, used new technologies to overcome limitations of the medium by which they do business. I do think crypto-currencies play a part in that, especially when considering the opportunities presented by a global marketplace. Better you can sell to anyone anywhere with no fees, instead of being locked to a given region because of credit card number, or cost structure because of higher risk transactions.
      - tormeh 12y ago
        BTC is an investment pyramid scheme, but an entirely legit transaction technology. Just be sure to exchange the BTC back into normal money fairly quickly, as it's neither a secure nor stable store of value.
      - cassgames 12y ago
        My experience of accepting donations over 3 months on my site: a handful of donations via Paypal, zero donations with BTC. UPD: doesn't matter though, I'd still implement BTC if I had to do it again. It didn't take much time and was a really interesting experiment. I do believe it's the future of Internet payments.
- rcfox 12y ago
  > The problem (to me) is the criminalization of porn and prostitution in the US. Porn is illegal in the US?
  - durkie 12y ago
    It's not ouright illegal, but it's becoming more and more onerous to work in the adult industry because of things like this: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/05/07/the-banks-war-on-porn.html http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/05/07/the-banks-w...
  - JetSpiegel 12y ago
    IANAL(hehehe), but prostitution is illegal, but if you film it and sell it for profit than it's legal.
  - itengelhardt 12y ago
    You are right. I should have said "stigmatization".
    - cindygallop 12y ago
      We at MakeLoveNotPorn are working to change that. My piece for the UK Independent on 'It's Not That Porn Degrades Women, It's That Business Degrades Porn': http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/its-not-that-porn-degrades-women-its-that-business-degrades-porn-8475620.html http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/its-not-that-por...
- srybchin 12y ago
  You are rare because most men don't understand the first thing about a woman's pleasure. Regardless, as an adult retailer, we don't have anything to do with porn or prostitution. Stripe and their bank shouldn't put all adult businesses into 1 box.
tormeh 12y ago
I think men are just wary of being seen as creeps. At a recent job search lecture at my uni we were told to never have a picture on your CV, with this as example of how it goes wrong: "Let's say you're a beautiful woman and you send a company your CV with pic on it. Now, the reviewer of your CV is male and if he asks you in for an interview the other employees at the company might suggest he did it because of the way you look. The reviewer will avoid this awkward situation by throwing your CV in the trash. Do not have a picture on your CV." Basically, the expectations of a modern man's sexuality are pretty fucked up and contradictory and most prefer to avoid the entire thing in public.
- ufmace 12y ago
  Especially so with something as big and public as backing or working with a sex toy company. No matter what way you go with it, somebody's going to try to jump down your throat. Often several different groups, for contradictory reasons. Is it any wonder that most men, and anybody whose job involves making sure your company isn't the target of a negative media frenzy, doesn't want to touch this stuff with a 10-foot pole?
  - tormeh 12y ago
    You know, it just hit me that having an all-female company would be really advantageous in this way. The grass is always greener etc. but from this side of the fence it looks like it makes you bulletproof to this kind of things.
    - cindygallop 12y ago
      Alas no, but I can tell you that many of the entrepreneurs doing really interesting things in this space are female :)
  - goatforce5 12y ago
    Interestingly, the public perception that you're tainted can make your company a good investment for the savvy (/thick-skinned) investor: http://www.canadianbusiness.com/investing/investing-in-sin-stocks/ http://www.canadianbusiness.com/investing/investing-in-sin-s... Since a lot of people wont touch sex (or tobacco, oil, military, etc.) investments, you can get these at a discount compared to other companies with similar numbers but in a more mainstream category.
pc 12y ago
I work at Stripe. Some details in the article aren't very accurate. But, more broadly, we actually work hard to push against the rules in many cases. (Cindy Gallop, mentioned earlier in the thread, can attest to this -- we spent ages trying to figure out a way to accept payments for her startup.)
- sudokent 12y ago
  Hi Pc, Do you think BTC or Stellar will help put downward pressure on the pricing model that Banks currently use for "High Risk" Merchants? My rate is essentially 15% because I'm a startup and my volume is so low.
- selmnoo 12y ago
  In the end Stripe could not work with her or other startups that feature "a naked person" on the product they're selling (the article seems to claim), is that correct? I'm assuming then pay-for-porn sties are not permitted business with Stripe either?
  - sudokent 12y ago
    They are not, anything classified as "High Risk" cannot be serviced by Stripe, Balanced, Braintree, etc. Again, from my research, it is because the partner banks will not allow them to.
    - selmnoo 12y ago
      Hm, okay. Though, it's not clear to me why porn sites en masse would be classified as "High Risk"? Are you sure this is always the case? How are current popular porn sites doing this? And, now that Stripe is quite big, don't they have some leverage over the banks to be able to say they do want porn sites et al. to be able to work with Stripe?
      - sudokent 12y ago
        That makes two of us! Porn en masse shouldn't be, but it is. As for Stripe's size, they are a tiny, tiny drop in the bucket compared to the world markets. Heck compared to a U.S based hedge fund they'd be tiny. I'm guessing they have very little leverage.
bilbo0s 12y ago
She's trying to fix the wrong problem. The men in charge of those businesses don't care what you sell. They only care not to get in trouble with the businesses they work with up the line. She should make her business acceptable to the banks... and I guarantee the tech companies will be HAPPY to take her money.
- cindygallop 12y ago
  Um - I've been battling the 'no adult content' clause for several years now, and unfortunately I can tell you that's not the case. I can't even open a business bank account for http://makelovenotporn.com/ http://makelovenotporn.com/ - I've been turned down by everyone including the startup banks (I met with both Silicon Valley Bank and Square One Bank and they refused to let us bank with them). This is the post I had to write to our members on 'Why We Make It So Hard For You To Give Us Your Money': http://talkabout.makelovenotporn.tv/2013/07/30/why-we-make-it-so-hard-for-you-to-give-us-your-money/ http://talkabout.makelovenotporn.tv/2013/07/30/why-we-make-i...

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]