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> The issue is that Gnome, KDE, and other software requires systemd. This I can't wrap my head around, why does Gnome for example need systemd? There are stand

> The issue is that Gnome, KDE, and other software requires systemd. This I can't wrap my head around, why does Gnome for example need systemd? There are standard ways on GNU/Linux to do everything it needs in a unix fashion (by deferring to small specialized tools): shutdown reboot whoami uname mount ... These and similar tools (or libc functions) give you all information you need (username, etc.) and system functions a desktop environment needs (reboot, hibernate). You then only need something like udev for plug-and-play (which is available without systemd, and as a part of it), and interfaces to the X/Wayland server and the audio system (which are both not a part of systemd). This seems to be all stuff that can easily be abstracted away in one module per OS. I don't see why you have to tightly couple your DE to systemd. (Unless, you are using your DE as a vehicle to push systemd, which I hope is not the case...)

asdfaoeu 12y ago
Systemd provides interfaces to reboot/shutdown as non root api which is controlled by polkit. It also allows a non root process running as part of an active session to get the DRM FD and other device FDs as part of the logind interface.
Xylemon 12y ago
I feel that the only reason Gnome needs SystemD is because RedHat said so. I honestly think making a DE require a specific init system is silly.
nslqqq 12y ago
Modern DE's also depend on logind. Which could be replaced with non systemd implementation that has same interface on dbus.
- makomk 12y ago
  To give people some idea of how practical a non-systemd implementation of logind's dbus API is, here's the documentation for it: http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/logind/ http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/logind/ It's big, gnarly, essentially undocumented, and contains a bunch of features to support tricky cases like multiseat machines (systems with two or more sets of keyboard, mouse and monitor, each with a different user) that are rarely used but still need to be supported because the API's designed around them. Even the systemd developers don't think a reimplementation is feasible.
the_why_of_y 12y ago
Please read these posts by David Herrmann to get an idea of the improvements in reliability that systemd-logind provides to desktops: http://dvdhrm.wordpress.com/2013/08/24/session-management-on-linux/ http://dvdhrm.wordpress.com/2013/08/24/session-management-on... http://dvdhrm.wordpress.com/2013/08/24/how-vt-switching-works/ http://dvdhrm.wordpress.com/2013/08/24/how-vt-switching-work... http://dvdhrm.wordpress.com/2013/08/25/sane-session-switching/ http://dvdhrm.wordpress.com/2013/08/25/sane-session-switchin...
grifferz 12y ago
This I can't wrap my head around, why does Gnome for example need systemd? Here's a good summary of the issue: http://homepage.ntlworld.com./jonathan.deboynepollard/FGA/debian-systemd-packaging-hoo-hah.html http://homepage.ntlworld.com./jonathan.deboynepollard/FGA/de... A bad thing about systemd and where we are now is the ever-changing API that is mentioned, which hampers alternatives to systemd. But, that is where we are now, Debian isn't in much of a position to change that, and forking probably isn't going to help with that. Debian wasn't ignorant of that either; these issues were discussed at length in the tech committee debate that originally settled on systemd being the default for jessie.

asdfaoeu 12y ago

Systemd provides interfaces to reboot/shutdown as non root api which is controlled by polkit. It also allows a non root process running as part of an active session to get the DRM FD and other device FDs as part of the logind interface.

Xylemon 12y ago

I feel that the only reason Gnome needs SystemD is because RedHat said so. I honestly think making a DE require a specific init system is silly.

nslqqq 12y ago

Modern DE's also depend on logind. Which could be replaced with non systemd implementation that has same interface on dbus.

makomk 12y ago
To give people some idea of how practical a non-systemd implementation of logind's dbus API is, here's the documentation for it: http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/logind/ http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/logind/ It's big, gnarly, essentially undocumented, and contains a bunch of features to support tricky cases like multiseat machines (systems with two or more sets of keyboard, mouse and monitor, each with a different user) that are rarely used but still need to be supported because the API's designed around them. Even the systemd developers don't think a reimplementation is feasible.

the_why_of_y 12y ago

Please read these posts by David Herrmann to get an idea of the improvements in reliability that systemd-logind provides to desktops: http://dvdhrm.wordpress.com/2013/08/24/session-management-on-linux/ http://dvdhrm.wordpress.com/2013/08/24/session-management-on... http://dvdhrm.wordpress.com/2013/08/24/how-vt-switching-works/ http://dvdhrm.wordpress.com/2013/08/24/how-vt-switching-work... http://dvdhrm.wordpress.com/2013/08/25/sane-session-switching/ http://dvdhrm.wordpress.com/2013/08/25/sane-session-switchin...

grifferz 12y ago

This I can't wrap my head around, why does Gnome for example need systemd? Here's a good summary of the issue: http://homepage.ntlworld.com./jonathan.deboynepollard/FGA/debian-systemd-packaging-hoo-hah.html http://homepage.ntlworld.com./jonathan.deboynepollard/FGA/de... A bad thing about systemd and where we are now is the ever-changing API that is mentioned, which hampers alternatives to systemd. But, that is where we are now, Debian isn't in much of a position to change that, and forking probably isn't going to help with that. Debian wasn't ignorant of that either; these issues were discussed at length in the tech committee debate that originally settled on systemd being the default for jessie.