8 ms·

> I also believe most employers are not trying to screw you or underpay you. This is something I hear contradicted here quite a bit. As someone who hasn't been

by cheepin 12y ago

> I also believe most employers are not trying to screw you or underpay you. This is something I hear contradicted here quite a bit. As someone who hasn't been in the industry a long time, I'm interested in hearing more about why this is or isn't true.

paulsutter 12y ago
TL/DR: IF YOU WANT A GOOD RAISE, GET A COMPETING OFFER. It's absolutely true. Employers really don't want to screw employees, they just have no true measure of your value. They have to use your most recent pay, YOUR OTHER OFFERS, industry stats, and a biased set of personal anecdotes to ballpark a placeholder when you get hired, because there really is no other information. Once you are hired, your manager never thinks about your salary. Until he has to, like annual reviews. OR YOU HAVE A COMPETING OFFER. And during annual reviews, he's given one bucket of raise that he needs to divvy up among his staff. There isn't a lot to go around, nor any way to handle special cases. That's just the way it works. If you want a good raise, get a competing offer.
- vinceguidry 12y ago
  I've heard this advocated a lot, but I find it hard to do in the case where you really don't want to leave your company, but do need to correct your salary. Because it requires engaging with other companies on less than good faith that you're really motivated to jump to another job. Sure, if you're a sociopath, this won't be a problem for you. As someone in this exact position, my solution was to ask for a raise, and when they said no, I considered trying to make a quick move. But after realizing that I really don't want to job hunt right this moment, I put my head down and went back to work. I think in order to get to that point in your career where you can easily have multiple competing offers to choose from, you need to be a really good developer with a spiffy-looking portfolio. Takes time to get there, and beating the bushes to get offers just doesn't appeal to me, and probably won't until I've fine-tuned my development process to where I can whip up websites like no tomorrow. My job is Good Enough for the moment, yours might be too if you think about it. Oh and parent comment presented his opinion as a TL:DR of the OP, when in fact it's just his opinion. The OP is nuanced and quite worth the read.
  - sheepmullet 12y ago
    "I think in order to get to that point in your career where you can easily have multiple competing offers to choose from, you need to be a really good developer with a spiffy-looking portfolio." Not true at all. Development is currently a hot market and you can get competing job offers right now without any portfolio as an average developer. If you wait a few years development might not be such a great market and you might not get a raise even if you are a much better developer.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
  - kelnos 12y ago
    ... it requires engaging with other companies on less than good faith that you're really motivated to jump to another job. This is what bothers me most about this sort of advice. As someone who is often trying to hire people, it's a lot of effort to get a candidate through the pipeline to the point where an offer is made. Intentionally causing people at another company to waste that kind of effort would make me feel like I was doing something unethical. I really don't think you should look for a competing offer unless you're willing to accept that offer if you don't get what you want from your current employer. As someone in this exact position, my solution was to ask for a raise, and when they said no, I considered trying to make a quick move. But after realizing that I really don't want to job hunt right this moment, I put my head down and went back to work. Yeah, I think that's just the value judgment everyone has to make. Either you get another offer and are willing to walk if it's not met, or you're willing to wait it out and see if you can get a better raise later. It's a personal decision based on your circumstances. Oh and parent comment presented his opinion as a TL:DR of the OP, when in fact it's just his opinion. The OP is nuanced and quite worth the read. I think the parent was actually tl;dr'ing his own post up front.
    - sheepmullet 12y ago
      "As someone who is often trying to hire people, it's a lot of effort to get a candidate through the pipeline to the point where an offer is made." Then make sure your staff aren't forced to get a competing offer just to get market rates. "Intentionally causing people at another company to waste that kind of effort would make me feel like I was doing something unethical" The vast majority of people applying for roles will switch if the offer is right. Sure if you offer 10% more I'd much rather just get my current employer to match... but if you offer 30+% then we have a deal. I don't want to stay with an employer who will underpay me by so much.
kelnos 12y ago
I think this is framed the wrong way. I don't think most employers try to screw or underpay you, but they will -- quite rationally and reasonably -- avoid paying more for what they can have for less. I'm sure there are some bad actors that try to keep their employees from figuring out what they're actually worth. The semi-recent revelations of no-poaching agreements between some high-profile tech companies certainly suggest that some do put a higher priority on retaining employees than they do on fair compensation. But I really don't think that's the norm. I don't think many HR departments and managers sit around trying to come up with ways to keep their employees' salaries down. I hope I'm not being too idealistic thinking that.

by cheepin 12y ago

paulsutter 12y ago

TL/DR: IF YOU WANT A GOOD RAISE, GET A COMPETING OFFER. It's absolutely true. Employers really don't want to screw employees, they just have no true measure of your value. They have to use your most recent pay, YOUR OTHER OFFERS, industry stats, and a biased set of personal anecdotes to ballpark a placeholder when you get hired, because there really is no other information. Once you are hired, your manager never thinks about your salary. Until he has to, like annual reviews. OR YOU HAVE A COMPETING OFFER. And during annual reviews, he's given one bucket of raise that he needs to divvy up among his staff. There isn't a lot to go around, nor any way to handle special cases. That's just the way it works. If you want a good raise, get a competing offer.

vinceguidry 12y ago
I've heard this advocated a lot, but I find it hard to do in the case where you really don't want to leave your company, but do need to correct your salary. Because it requires engaging with other companies on less than good faith that you're really motivated to jump to another job. Sure, if you're a sociopath, this won't be a problem for you. As someone in this exact position, my solution was to ask for a raise, and when they said no, I considered trying to make a quick move. But after realizing that I really don't want to job hunt right this moment, I put my head down and went back to work. I think in order to get to that point in your career where you can easily have multiple competing offers to choose from, you need to be a really good developer with a spiffy-looking portfolio. Takes time to get there, and beating the bushes to get offers just doesn't appeal to me, and probably won't until I've fine-tuned my development process to where I can whip up websites like no tomorrow. My job is Good Enough for the moment, yours might be too if you think about it. Oh and parent comment presented his opinion as a TL:DR of the OP, when in fact it's just his opinion. The OP is nuanced and quite worth the read.
- sheepmullet 12y ago
  "I think in order to get to that point in your career where you can easily have multiple competing offers to choose from, you need to be a really good developer with a spiffy-looking portfolio." Not true at all. Development is currently a hot market and you can get competing job offers right now without any portfolio as an average developer. If you wait a few years development might not be such a great market and you might not get a raise even if you are a much better developer.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
- kelnos 12y ago
  ... it requires engaging with other companies on less than good faith that you're really motivated to jump to another job. This is what bothers me most about this sort of advice. As someone who is often trying to hire people, it's a lot of effort to get a candidate through the pipeline to the point where an offer is made. Intentionally causing people at another company to waste that kind of effort would make me feel like I was doing something unethical. I really don't think you should look for a competing offer unless you're willing to accept that offer if you don't get what you want from your current employer. As someone in this exact position, my solution was to ask for a raise, and when they said no, I considered trying to make a quick move. But after realizing that I really don't want to job hunt right this moment, I put my head down and went back to work. Yeah, I think that's just the value judgment everyone has to make. Either you get another offer and are willing to walk if it's not met, or you're willing to wait it out and see if you can get a better raise later. It's a personal decision based on your circumstances. Oh and parent comment presented his opinion as a TL:DR of the OP, when in fact it's just his opinion. The OP is nuanced and quite worth the read. I think the parent was actually tl;dr'ing his own post up front.
  - sheepmullet 12y ago
    "As someone who is often trying to hire people, it's a lot of effort to get a candidate through the pipeline to the point where an offer is made." Then make sure your staff aren't forced to get a competing offer just to get market rates. "Intentionally causing people at another company to waste that kind of effort would make me feel like I was doing something unethical" The vast majority of people applying for roles will switch if the offer is right. Sure if you offer 10% more I'd much rather just get my current employer to match... but if you offer 30+% then we have a deal. I don't want to stay with an employer who will underpay me by so much.

kelnos 12y ago

I think this is framed the wrong way. I don't think most employers try to screw or underpay you, but they will -- quite rationally and reasonably -- avoid paying more for what they can have for less. I'm sure there are some bad actors that try to keep their employees from figuring out what they're actually worth. The semi-recent revelations of no-poaching agreements between some high-profile tech companies certainly suggest that some do put a higher priority on retaining employees than they do on fair compensation. But I really don't think that's the norm. I don't think many HR departments and managers sit around trying to come up with ways to keep their employees' salaries down. I hope I'm not being too idealistic thinking that.