4 ms·

This gets repeated incorrectly every time this issue comes up, but data you hand over to third parties isn't black and white and is subject to access from other

This gets repeated incorrectly every time this issue comes up, but data you hand over to third parties isn't black and white and is subject to access from other entities.

waterlesscloud 12y ago
If information resides entirely on a phone which I own, which third party am I handing it over to? Am I handing over information to Moleskine when I write in a notebook I purchased?
- res0nat0r 12y ago
  Your information passing thru Apple servers can be subpoenaed by law enforcement when they have a warrant signed by a judge. This isn't new news to you or I.
  - waterlesscloud 12y ago
    Yes, but that's not the issue being discussed here. This is specifically about information that exists only on the phone itself.
    - res0nat0r 12y ago
      I understand where the pics are coming from when they have a signed warrant from a judge demonstrating probable cause, so I understand can can feel for both sides of the argument. It isn't a simple issue.
  - tobylane 12y ago
    If (and I'm not sure photos are included) Apple is telling the truth, the data was secured in transit with their usual SSL, and was encrypted on the user's computer first, then is the data really on Apples' servers at all? They have an encrypted blob with no key, saying they have a copy of it isn't accurate. If it was a real safe then a) Apple can't prove that the blob doesn't hold a document that a warrant is for, but equally law enforcement can't prove it is there. Unfortunately they can just ask for the whole thing. b) Chain of custody can't be shown by Apple, all they did is take the locked safe from you. I could send a document to the printer and ask you to take it to my boss, what if they received a resignation letter not a weekly report?
graycat 12y ago
Sorry, I typed quickly. I was referring to encryption on the iPhone, not on some cloud server. From recent media stories, some people in law enforcement want to be able to take a person's mobile device and see what data is on it and also want the right to demand that the owner of the device decrypt the data. My view of this part of the Constitution is that the person and their device are protected and law enforcement is wrong. So, the way I read the Constitution, if I have an iPhone and the data on it is encrypted, then I don't have to give the FBI so much as a spit if they don't have one of those warrant thingies. Even if they do have a warrant, do I have to decrypt the data for them? I'd guess and hope not, but that might need a SCOTUS opinion. But, for the cloud, hmm, let's see: I write a very personal diary and store it in a safe deposit box at a bank. Now that diary is no longer part of my "personal papers"? I would hope that that part of the Constitution would continue to apply to my diary, even though it is in bank's box. And if I type my diary into a computer file and store it, encrypted, on a cloud server, again I would think that that file on the cloud server was still my "personal papers and effects". Maybe we need some SCOTUS cases.
- GHFigs 12y ago
  My view of this part of the Constitution is that the person and their device are protected and law enforcement is wrong. You seem to not sharing the Constitution's distinction between warrantless and warranted searches. The complaint being fielded by some in law enforcement is that recent changes in encryption mechanisms in iOS and Android will render many warranted searches useless.
  - graycat 12y ago
    > distinction? Yes, in the first paragraph is implicitly assumed that law enforcement didn't have a warrant. But eventually I also wrote "if they don't have one of those warrant thingies. Even if they do have a warrant, do I have to decrypt the data for them?" So, there I was considering the distinction.
Nursie 12y ago
The only reason people hand data over to third parties is that that's how the software works. If they knew how many rights they were giving up by doing so the they might be more careful. It should be legally irrelevant whether I handed someone a photo or sent it to them using an app and a network.

This gets repeated incorrectly every time this issue comes up, but data you hand over to third parties isn't black and white and is subject to access from other entities.

waterlesscloud 12y ago

If information resides entirely on a phone which I own, which third party am I handing it over to? Am I handing over information to Moleskine when I write in a notebook I purchased?

res0nat0r 12y ago
Your information passing thru Apple servers can be subpoenaed by law enforcement when they have a warrant signed by a judge. This isn't new news to you or I.
- waterlesscloud 12y ago
  Yes, but that's not the issue being discussed here. This is specifically about information that exists only on the phone itself.
  - res0nat0r 12y ago
    I understand where the pics are coming from when they have a signed warrant from a judge demonstrating probable cause, so I understand can can feel for both sides of the argument. It isn't a simple issue.
- tobylane 12y ago
  If (and I'm not sure photos are included) Apple is telling the truth, the data was secured in transit with their usual SSL, and was encrypted on the user's computer first, then is the data really on Apples' servers at all? They have an encrypted blob with no key, saying they have a copy of it isn't accurate. If it was a real safe then a) Apple can't prove that the blob doesn't hold a document that a warrant is for, but equally law enforcement can't prove it is there. Unfortunately they can just ask for the whole thing. b) Chain of custody can't be shown by Apple, all they did is take the locked safe from you. I could send a document to the printer and ask you to take it to my boss, what if they received a resignation letter not a weekly report?

graycat 12y ago

Sorry, I typed quickly. I was referring to encryption on the iPhone, not on some cloud server. From recent media stories, some people in law enforcement want to be able to take a person's mobile device and see what data is on it and also want the right to demand that the owner of the device decrypt the data. My view of this part of the Constitution is that the person and their device are protected and law enforcement is wrong. So, the way I read the Constitution, if I have an iPhone and the data on it is encrypted, then I don't have to give the FBI so much as a spit if they don't have one of those warrant thingies. Even if they do have a warrant, do I have to decrypt the data for them? I'd guess and hope not, but that might need a SCOTUS opinion. But, for the cloud, hmm, let's see: I write a very personal diary and store it in a safe deposit box at a bank. Now that diary is no longer part of my "personal papers"? I would hope that that part of the Constitution would continue to apply to my diary, even though it is in bank's box. And if I type my diary into a computer file and store it, encrypted, on a cloud server, again I would think that that file on the cloud server was still my "personal papers and effects". Maybe we need some SCOTUS cases.

GHFigs 12y ago
My view of this part of the Constitution is that the person and their device are protected and law enforcement is wrong. You seem to not sharing the Constitution's distinction between warrantless and warranted searches. The complaint being fielded by some in law enforcement is that recent changes in encryption mechanisms in iOS and Android will render many warranted searches useless.
- graycat 12y ago
  > distinction? Yes, in the first paragraph is implicitly assumed that law enforcement didn't have a warrant. But eventually I also wrote "if they don't have one of those warrant thingies. Even if they do have a warrant, do I have to decrypt the data for them?" So, there I was considering the distinction.

Nursie 12y ago

The only reason people hand data over to third parties is that that's how the software works. If they knew how many rights they were giving up by doing so the they might be more careful. It should be legally irrelevant whether I handed someone a photo or sent it to them using an app and a network.