8 ms·

Bilingual brains: Variety makes you mentally fit

98 points by anishkothari 12y ago

hawkice 12y ago
There's also evidence that we are less susceptible to biases when given hypothetical scenarios in foreign languages. I am considering keeping my todo list in a foreign language, in case that helps me prioritize e.g. sales, where things like loss aversion might stifle it. http://pss.sagepub.com/content/early/2012/04/18/0956797611432178 http://pss.sagepub.com/content/early/2012/04/18/095679761143...
- nrinaudo 12y ago
  I've tried that, and it does not really work. Turns out I'm just as averse to paperwork in English as I am in French. It can also have a significant downside: I've tried maintaining a todo list in a language that I'm not very good at, only to realise that looking up highly specific vocabulary was such a chore that after a while, I'd unconsciously skip writing some entries that looked too complicated to translate. Have a go, it might work out better for you, but this particular experiment was a failure as far as I'm concerned.
prteja11 12y ago
I wonder if knowing (and using) a third language or even a fourth will reduce the dementia/ increase the positive effects even further.
- corylehey 12y ago
  also makes me kind of wonder if there is any benefit of only knowing one language
  - sho_hn 12y ago
    I dimly recall reading an article on a study that tried to compare the performance of monolingual and bilingual people. From what I remember the bilingual individuals tended to have an edge in the more complex tasks, but monolinguals were significantly faster at some basic operations like sorting lists of words or finding a word in an unsorted list.
    - mastre_ 12y ago
      The last part makes sense, it's similar to a game where they introduce more and more unfamiliar symbols to you as you progress to higher levels, the more unknowns you have to deal with the more you slow down. Eventually, if/when you learn them well you get most of the speed back. I guess most people learning 2nd languages don't learn them well enough to know the 2nd language really well; technically, if you know both languages equally well, the speed penalty/overhead will be minimal, similar to expanding one's vocabulary in the same language (as long as you don't exceed some threshold of mental capacity).
      - sho_hn 12y ago
        I'm not sure that's it. I need to preface this by saying that I'm working from really dim memories here, but from what I recall they were using a definition of 'bilingual' that people who learn a second language after a certain age don't fit, and the tested bilinguals should feel at home in both languages. Rather, it seems that having more than one language active in the brain concurrently (which requires them to be similarly well developed and in regular use) requires the brain to do more active selection work. I'm not sure this actually makes sense or is just my reading of it, but basically it can't jump to one thing immediately, but has to eliminate the alternatives first. This gives the bilingual brain an edge in tasks that benefit from being well-trained to do that step (and seems to help stave off dementia, where inhibitory control goes out the window, which is a necessity for this selection process to happen), but slows it down in other tasks that would benefit from not having to do the extra work. In other words, if you're asked to sort or bin a list of English words, it seems to help if your brain doesn't have to wade through a soup made of multiple languages. But if you're asked to do something that exercises similar muscles as wading through this kind of soup (maybe "process strained analogies"? - I kid), it gives you a different sort of edge.
inzax 12y ago
As shown on https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hacker-News/1558365107716690 https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hacker-News/1558365107716690
erokar 12y ago
I wonder to what extent using several programming languages has the same effect. If the hypothesis about language switching as an inhibitory mental exercise is correct, then polyglot programming should have some of the same benefits.
- malcote 12y ago
  Perhaps the ambiguity of natural languages is essential to them functioning as mental exercise though? There's a lot of alternatives to consider for phrasing and word-choice. In contrast, programming languages are very structured (by necessity).
- jiggy2011 12y ago
  Probably not, most programming languages boil down to the same thing with different syntax.
  - jurassic 12y ago
    The same could be said of natural languages. People spend a lot of time talking about similar things in every language.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
  - vegedor 12y ago
    not at all, most express different concepts. Of course there is overlap and you can get by using the same concept in different languages and ultimately they boil down to asm, but you need to think differently about the interpreter. It's the same with related natural languages.
  - collyw 12y ago
    Most mainstream imperative languages. SQL is a world apart form Java.
- jp555 12y ago
melling 12y ago
My "nights and weekends" project for the past few years has been writing iOS language learning apps. The niche that I'm looking to fill is to create enough "games/drills" to help alleviate the incredible repetition needed to learn another language. Anyway, I'm looking for suggestions so I can find my niche in a really crowed market... https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/h4-spanish-lite/id388918463?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/h4-spanish-lite/id388918463?... I'd really appreciate any ideas or suggestions.
- ronyeh 12y ago
  Good luck! Here is my own iOS language learning app (Japanese): http://itunes.apple.com/app/id492005575 http://itunes.apple.com/app/id492005575 It seems like it's difficult to make much money unless you are one of market leaders. Check out mindsnacks if you haven't already.
- xiaoma 12y ago
  As someone who spent years studying and teaching languages, my single biggest advice is to remember that learning a language is not simply a matter of learning words. Don't fall into the trap of throwing a dictionary full of words into an SRS and hoping for the best. Focus on input, not production. Include phonetic training. Make the user distinguish between each minimal pair in the language, possibly even every single syllable in the language. This is simple, but rarely done. Include an extensive reading component. This is a monumental task that could be broken into many apps or many short stories that are in app purchases. Good luck! I'm really, really hoping to see something better than the very low bar hit by existing apps!
  - vegedor 12y ago
    >Make the user distinguish between each minimal pair in the language, possibly even every single syllable in the language I have so much trouble spelling words like definately^W definitely, because they sound the same to me ;)
    - xiaoma 12y ago
a8da6b0c91d 12y ago
I've been around a lot of people who were raised bilingual in English and an oriental language and most of them complained that it was too hard. They felt that at the high school and college level it's not possible to fully develop advanced vocabulary and usage in both languages. You can risk coming across as non-native or stupid in both languages. I think a lot of this stuff about bilingualism is biased toward people learning two related indo-european languages, which isn't that hard.
- PeterWhittaker 12y ago
  Perhaps it depends on the languages. I was raised in English; French was added starting at 5. Today, at 49, I am fluently and idiomatically bilingual in English, French, and various idiomatic variations on both common to the provinces in which I've lived (I can switch from stock-standard English to various idiomatic dialects and accents, as many of you can, e.g., formal English Vs the street or town English you spoke growing up, from those used here in Ontario to lilting dialects and accents of Nova Scotia; I can do the same with a few Quebec Joual dialects.) With a couple of days in Paris, I am taken for a native. Same thing in New Orleans or Chicago (I have to be very careful about not drifting into local accents, I just sort of go there.) So it is possible to be perfectly bilingual - but it requires early exposure to the second language and an ear (which can be developed - you have to stop listening to specifics, to particulars, and listen holistically, letting the language flow over you so that you understand the intent without understanding individual words - practice that for a while, and the words come). I also speak passable remedial Spanish and have learned and forgotten a whole lot of Turkish, Arabic, German, and Greek. After a while, your inner voice switches to non-linguistic (which I think might mean it returns to what it was before you had language, i.e., as a child). I used to think mostly in English, but nowadays I think in, well, viscera. I then have to find the words that most closely match the viscera. For simple things, that happens quickly. For complex things or subtle differences, it can take time, during which I sputter. About 6 months ago I ask a friend's daughter whether this had happened to her yet (she was raised in French, added English much later, then some Spanish, and finally did intensive German prior to heading o'er the pond for her M.Eng). Her eyes went wide and she shrieked "OUI! OUI! Exactement!" She turned to her mother: "M'man! Il comprend exactement qu'est ce qui m'arrive!" (Yes, yes, exactly! Mom! He understands exactly what is happening to me!) She'd been going through the same thing and didn't know it had ever happened to anyone else. It's a truly strange thing, mind blowing - and mind expanding. Sometimes, I can sort of disconnect from language. It frees my mind in a most powerful way. It's tricky to get there, though, and sometimes even harder to get back.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
sytelus 12y ago
I want to be careful about these sort of research. Too many times I've seen these kind of "research" is often funded by commercial entities that teach foreign languages. It's like what PG had described in his "Submarine" essay. There is a big industry to teach foreign languages to toddlers and even new born. There is quite a bit of reputable research to back up positive effects however no one seems to be doing research on if there are any negative effects. This is like every research starts with a hypothesis like there are either positive effects or nothing . But on the other hand there are proven facts that toddlers/babies learn only certain number of words in a given period. This implies kids at that age have limited capacity to memorize and recall things. So wouldn't that imply that bilingual training at that age would halve that capacity? Could bilingual babies have less volculbary in each language and late start in figuring out deeper nitty gritty of grammar? Is it possible that bilingual training at early age exchanges depth for a breadth?
- blackkettle 12y ago
  What you say about research being partially corrupted by agendas is generally true and applies to pretty much every area of science to varying degrees. The claim that second language acquisition is defined solely by this is, however completely false. It is a large and well-researched academic discipline and there exists plenty of research regarding negative effects. Here is a pretty decent summary, with a very compact abstract: Bilingualism: The good, the bad, and the indifferent http://www.yumingschool.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Bilingualism.-The-good-the-bad-and-the-indifferent.pdf http://www.yumingschool.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Bilin... > The present paper summarizes research showing that bilingualism affects linguistic and cognitive performance across the lifespan. The effect on linguistic performance is generally seen as a deficit in which bilingual children control a smaller vocabulary than their monolingual peers and bilingual adults perform more poorly on rapid lexical retrieval tasks. The effect on cognitive performance is to enhance executive functioning and to protect against the decline of executive control in aging. These effects interact to produce a complex pattern regarding the effect of bilingualism on memory performance. Memory tasks based primarily on verbal recall are performed more poorly by bilinguals but memory tasks based primarily on executive control are performed better by bilinguals. Speculations regarding the mechanism responsible for these effects are described.
trumbitta2 12y ago
Anedoctal evidence: I'm 37, italian, always been good at speaking english (since I was 7). In the past few years, my command of english improved so much that I started forgetting words both in italian and in english. /facepalm
- grokys 12y ago
  Ha, I'm English and I've been living in Italy for two years (so my Italian is still not exactly incredible) and I'm starting to find the same! I wonder if this happens because the two languages can be very similar at times and at other times very different. Would things be a lot different if I were learning, for example, Japanese I wonder?
ajani 12y ago
I am somewhat amused by the multiple studies and articles on Bilingualism. Simply because I happen to be just one of the many pentalingual (if that's a term) people I know. My entire family speaks five languages. English, Hindi, Marathi, Kutcchi and Gujarati. Kutcchi and Gujarati are what I was born into. The rest are mandatory through school here (Mumbai, India). So anyone who went to school is at least trilingual. In fact most students are fluent in at least 3 languages by the time they are 6 or so. If there is any good at all in being bilingual, what does it mean to be trilingual? Let alone pentalingual? Does the law of diminishing returns apply?
- maga 12y ago
  Aside from English, they're all closely related languages (Hindi, Marathi, Gujarati). I wouldn't really expect knowing related languages to give the same payoff as say knowing languages from different groups or families of languages.
  - ajani 12y ago
    Let's take three families of languages: ((Japanese, Mandarin, Cantonese), (Hindi, Marathi, Gujarati), (English, French, Italian, German, Dutch, Latin)) Are you saying that knowing one from each set is more beneficial than knowing three from any one set?
    - maga 12y ago
      I wouldn't group them like that, English/German/Dutch are Germanic languages, while French/Italian/Latin are Romance. Japanese also a bit removed from Mandarin/Cantonese. But, yes, I would argue that knowing unrelated languages broadens ones perspective far more than knowing similar ones.
      - ajani 12y ago
        Interesting. I was looking at: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4f/IndoEuropeanTree.svg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4f/IndoEurop... There are subdivisions like Germanic and Romance in the language family which do seem sufficiently far apart. However, there are quite a few subdivisions that seem very closely related. I wonder if there is a way to draw entirely new subdivisions based on benefits of knowing languages from each subdivision. Also, intuitively, what you say about knowing unrelated languages makes sense. I am curious however, if you had some deeper insight or knowledge into why (if true) this might be?

98 points by anishkothari 12y ago

There's also evidence that we are less susceptible to biases when given hypothetical scenarios in foreign languages. I am considering keeping my todo list in a foreign language, in case that helps me prioritize e.g. sales, where things like loss aversion might stifle it. http://pss.sagepub.com/content/early/2012/04/18/0956797611432178 http://pss.sagepub.com/content/early/2012/04/18/095679761143...

nrinaudo 12y ago
I've tried that, and it does not really work. Turns out I'm just as averse to paperwork in English as I am in French. It can also have a significant downside: I've tried maintaining a todo list in a language that I'm not very good at, only to realise that looking up highly specific vocabulary was such a chore that after a while, I'd unconsciously skip writing some entries that looked too complicated to translate. Have a go, it might work out better for you, but this particular experiment was a failure as far as I'm concerned.

prteja11 12y ago

I wonder if knowing (and using) a third language or even a fourth will reduce the dementia/ increase the positive effects even further.

corylehey 12y ago
also makes me kind of wonder if there is any benefit of only knowing one language
- sho_hn 12y ago
  I dimly recall reading an article on a study that tried to compare the performance of monolingual and bilingual people. From what I remember the bilingual individuals tended to have an edge in the more complex tasks, but monolinguals were significantly faster at some basic operations like sorting lists of words or finding a word in an unsorted list.
  - mastre_ 12y ago
    The last part makes sense, it's similar to a game where they introduce more and more unfamiliar symbols to you as you progress to higher levels, the more unknowns you have to deal with the more you slow down. Eventually, if/when you learn them well you get most of the speed back. I guess most people learning 2nd languages don't learn them well enough to know the 2nd language really well; technically, if you know both languages equally well, the speed penalty/overhead will be minimal, similar to expanding one's vocabulary in the same language (as long as you don't exceed some threshold of mental capacity).
    - sho_hn 12y ago
      I'm not sure that's it. I need to preface this by saying that I'm working from really dim memories here, but from what I recall they were using a definition of 'bilingual' that people who learn a second language after a certain age don't fit, and the tested bilinguals should feel at home in both languages. Rather, it seems that having more than one language active in the brain concurrently (which requires them to be similarly well developed and in regular use) requires the brain to do more active selection work. I'm not sure this actually makes sense or is just my reading of it, but basically it can't jump to one thing immediately, but has to eliminate the alternatives first. This gives the bilingual brain an edge in tasks that benefit from being well-trained to do that step (and seems to help stave off dementia, where inhibitory control goes out the window, which is a necessity for this selection process to happen), but slows it down in other tasks that would benefit from not having to do the extra work. In other words, if you're asked to sort or bin a list of English words, it seems to help if your brain doesn't have to wade through a soup made of multiple languages. But if you're asked to do something that exercises similar muscles as wading through this kind of soup (maybe "process strained analogies"? - I kid), it gives you a different sort of edge.

inzax 12y ago

As shown on https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hacker-News/1558365107716690 https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hacker-News/1558365107716690

erokar 12y ago

I wonder to what extent using several programming languages has the same effect. If the hypothesis about language switching as an inhibitory mental exercise is correct, then polyglot programming should have some of the same benefits.

malcote 12y ago
Perhaps the ambiguity of natural languages is essential to them functioning as mental exercise though? There's a lot of alternatives to consider for phrasing and word-choice. In contrast, programming languages are very structured (by necessity).
jiggy2011 12y ago
Probably not, most programming languages boil down to the same thing with different syntax.
- jurassic 12y ago
  The same could be said of natural languages. People spend a lot of time talking about similar things in every language.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
- vegedor 12y ago
  not at all, most express different concepts. Of course there is overlap and you can get by using the same concept in different languages and ultimately they boil down to asm, but you need to think differently about the interpreter. It's the same with related natural languages.
- collyw 12y ago
  Most mainstream imperative languages. SQL is a world apart form Java.
jp555 12y ago

melling 12y ago

My "nights and weekends" project for the past few years has been writing iOS language learning apps. The niche that I'm looking to fill is to create enough "games/drills" to help alleviate the incredible repetition needed to learn another language. Anyway, I'm looking for suggestions so I can find my niche in a really crowed market... https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/h4-spanish-lite/id388918463?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/h4-spanish-lite/id388918463?... I'd really appreciate any ideas or suggestions.

ronyeh 12y ago
Good luck! Here is my own iOS language learning app (Japanese): http://itunes.apple.com/app/id492005575 http://itunes.apple.com/app/id492005575 It seems like it's difficult to make much money unless you are one of market leaders. Check out mindsnacks if you haven't already.
xiaoma 12y ago
As someone who spent years studying and teaching languages, my single biggest advice is to remember that learning a language is not simply a matter of learning words. Don't fall into the trap of throwing a dictionary full of words into an SRS and hoping for the best. Focus on input, not production. Include phonetic training. Make the user distinguish between each minimal pair in the language, possibly even every single syllable in the language. This is simple, but rarely done. Include an extensive reading component. This is a monumental task that could be broken into many apps or many short stories that are in app purchases. Good luck! I'm really, really hoping to see something better than the very low bar hit by existing apps!
- vegedor 12y ago
  >Make the user distinguish between each minimal pair in the language, possibly even every single syllable in the language I have so much trouble spelling words like definately^W definitely, because they sound the same to me ;)
  - xiaoma 12y ago

a8da6b0c91d 12y ago

I've been around a lot of people who were raised bilingual in English and an oriental language and most of them complained that it was too hard. They felt that at the high school and college level it's not possible to fully develop advanced vocabulary and usage in both languages. You can risk coming across as non-native or stupid in both languages. I think a lot of this stuff about bilingualism is biased toward people learning two related indo-european languages, which isn't that hard.

PeterWhittaker 12y ago
Perhaps it depends on the languages. I was raised in English; French was added starting at 5. Today, at 49, I am fluently and idiomatically bilingual in English, French, and various idiomatic variations on both common to the provinces in which I've lived (I can switch from stock-standard English to various idiomatic dialects and accents, as many of you can, e.g., formal English Vs the street or town English you spoke growing up, from those used here in Ontario to lilting dialects and accents of Nova Scotia; I can do the same with a few Quebec Joual dialects.) With a couple of days in Paris, I am taken for a native. Same thing in New Orleans or Chicago (I have to be very careful about not drifting into local accents, I just sort of go there.) So it is possible to be perfectly bilingual - but it requires early exposure to the second language and an ear (which can be developed - you have to stop listening to specifics, to particulars, and listen holistically, letting the language flow over you so that you understand the intent without understanding individual words - practice that for a while, and the words come). I also speak passable remedial Spanish and have learned and forgotten a whole lot of Turkish, Arabic, German, and Greek. After a while, your inner voice switches to non-linguistic (which I think might mean it returns to what it was before you had language, i.e., as a child). I used to think mostly in English, but nowadays I think in, well, viscera. I then have to find the words that most closely match the viscera. For simple things, that happens quickly. For complex things or subtle differences, it can take time, during which I sputter. About 6 months ago I ask a friend's daughter whether this had happened to her yet (she was raised in French, added English much later, then some Spanish, and finally did intensive German prior to heading o'er the pond for her M.Eng). Her eyes went wide and she shrieked "OUI! OUI! Exactement!" She turned to her mother: "M'man! Il comprend exactement qu'est ce qui m'arrive!" (Yes, yes, exactly! Mom! He understands exactly what is happening to me!) She'd been going through the same thing and didn't know it had ever happened to anyone else. It's a truly strange thing, mind blowing - and mind expanding. Sometimes, I can sort of disconnect from language. It frees my mind in a most powerful way. It's tricky to get there, though, and sometimes even harder to get back.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

sytelus 12y ago

I want to be careful about these sort of research. Too many times I've seen these kind of "research" is often funded by commercial entities that teach foreign languages. It's like what PG had described in his "Submarine" essay. There is a big industry to teach foreign languages to toddlers and even new born. There is quite a bit of reputable research to back up positive effects however no one seems to be doing research on if there are any negative effects. This is like every research starts with a hypothesis like there are either positive effects or nothing . But on the other hand there are proven facts that toddlers/babies learn only certain number of words in a given period. This implies kids at that age have limited capacity to memorize and recall things. So wouldn't that imply that bilingual training at that age would halve that capacity? Could bilingual babies have less volculbary in each language and late start in figuring out deeper nitty gritty of grammar? Is it possible that bilingual training at early age exchanges depth for a breadth?

blackkettle 12y ago
What you say about research being partially corrupted by agendas is generally true and applies to pretty much every area of science to varying degrees. The claim that second language acquisition is defined solely by this is, however completely false. It is a large and well-researched academic discipline and there exists plenty of research regarding negative effects. Here is a pretty decent summary, with a very compact abstract: Bilingualism: The good, the bad, and the indifferent http://www.yumingschool.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Bilingualism.-The-good-the-bad-and-the-indifferent.pdf http://www.yumingschool.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Bilin... > The present paper summarizes research showing that bilingualism affects linguistic and cognitive performance across the lifespan. The effect on linguistic performance is generally seen as a deficit in which bilingual children control a smaller vocabulary than their monolingual peers and bilingual adults perform more poorly on rapid lexical retrieval tasks. The effect on cognitive performance is to enhance executive functioning and to protect against the decline of executive control in aging. These effects interact to produce a complex pattern regarding the effect of bilingualism on memory performance. Memory tasks based primarily on verbal recall are performed more poorly by bilinguals but memory tasks based primarily on executive control are performed better by bilinguals. Speculations regarding the mechanism responsible for these effects are described.

trumbitta2 12y ago

Anedoctal evidence: I'm 37, italian, always been good at speaking english (since I was 7). In the past few years, my command of english improved so much that I started forgetting words both in italian and in english. /facepalm

grokys 12y ago
Ha, I'm English and I've been living in Italy for two years (so my Italian is still not exactly incredible) and I'm starting to find the same! I wonder if this happens because the two languages can be very similar at times and at other times very different. Would things be a lot different if I were learning, for example, Japanese I wonder?

ajani 12y ago

I am somewhat amused by the multiple studies and articles on Bilingualism. Simply because I happen to be just one of the many pentalingual (if that's a term) people I know. My entire family speaks five languages. English, Hindi, Marathi, Kutcchi and Gujarati. Kutcchi and Gujarati are what I was born into. The rest are mandatory through school here (Mumbai, India). So anyone who went to school is at least trilingual. In fact most students are fluent in at least 3 languages by the time they are 6 or so. If there is any good at all in being bilingual, what does it mean to be trilingual? Let alone pentalingual? Does the law of diminishing returns apply?

maga 12y ago
Aside from English, they're all closely related languages (Hindi, Marathi, Gujarati). I wouldn't really expect knowing related languages to give the same payoff as say knowing languages from different groups or families of languages.
- ajani 12y ago
  Let's take three families of languages: ((Japanese, Mandarin, Cantonese), (Hindi, Marathi, Gujarati), (English, French, Italian, German, Dutch, Latin)) Are you saying that knowing one from each set is more beneficial than knowing three from any one set?
  - maga 12y ago
    I wouldn't group them like that, English/German/Dutch are Germanic languages, while French/Italian/Latin are Romance. Japanese also a bit removed from Mandarin/Cantonese. But, yes, I would argue that knowing unrelated languages broadens ones perspective far more than knowing similar ones.
    - ajani 12y ago
      Interesting. I was looking at: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4f/IndoEuropeanTree.svg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4f/IndoEurop... There are subdivisions like Germanic and Romance in the language family which do seem sufficiently far apart. However, there are quite a few subdivisions that seem very closely related. I wonder if there is a way to draw entirely new subdivisions based on benefits of knowing languages from each subdivision. Also, intuitively, what you say about knowing unrelated languages makes sense. I am curious however, if you had some deeper insight or knowledge into why (if true) this might be?