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Proper title should be "Rental America: Why the stupid pay $4,150 for a $1,500 sofa". Let's stop sugar-coating this kind of nonsense and shifting the blame to

Proper title should be "Rental America: Why the stupid pay $4,150 for a $1,500 sofa". Let's stop sugar-coating this kind of nonsense and shifting the blame to predatory companies. Nobody made these people spend their money on non-essential furniture and electronics. If we were talking about food, utilities, healthcare or shelter, it would be another thing entirely. But these folks have set aside delayed gratification and voluntarily purchased luxury items at a mark-up that would make a theater concession stand manager blush.

pluma 12y ago
That's only partially true. Yes, nobody's pointing a gun at their head and forcing them to buy expensive crap. But there's advertising everywhere. Advertising is there to get people to buy things they might otherwise not buy. I'm not against consumerism, but it's absurd to have companies spend billions on getting people to buy their stuff and then blaming the same people for their purchasing habits. Humans are not rational machines. We're social animals. We do a lot of stupid things. But we're not any more stupid for not being able to grow beyond that.
- MrZongle2 12y ago
  But there's advertising everywhere. Advertising is there to get people to buy things they might otherwise not buy. But if advertising is such an irresistible siren song, how come you and I -- and everybody else on HN -- are not up to our necks in debt to rent-to-own stores? I don't think its because we're special. I think it's because most of us engage in some kind of critical thinking, self control, and can do basic math. It is the responsibility of the individuals themselves.
  - pluma 12y ago
    If advertising wouldn't work, there wouldn't be so much of it. Look at yourself critically. How many of your last year's purchasing decisions were based on actual need? And of those, how many times could you have bought something cheaper instead? And no rationalisations about cost and quality and long-term amortisations and whatnot, please. Yes, poor people suck at managing their money. But at the same time the advertising industry focusses on them. A lot of price-based advertising relies on people not looking at it closely enough. Yay, free phones with mobile contracts. I can buy a new sofa for only $50/month (over the next ten years). This ringtone costs only 99 cents (if you subscribe for 3 ringtones per week at a cost of $2.97/week and all the ones you want are in different subscriptions and don't forget the offer code you originally subscribed with or you'll have a hard time cancelling the subscription when you notice it a month from now). Our culture places a lot of emphasis on status symbols and wealth. If you're not wealthy, that's because you're lazy. If you can't afford status symbols to prove your wealth it's because you're a failure as a human being. This is an exaggeration, but it's what the mainstream media tells you and what the billboards shout at you. I'm not saying it's impossible to manage your funds well if you barely have any. I've seen plenty of old widows in Germany be able to make do with welfare because they were used to not being able to afford anything (or even theoretically be able to buy anything if they had the money) throughout the post-war period, but we're talking about people who've learned to cope in a situation where it was entirely possible to freeze or starve to death even if you did everything right. Luxury meant having a variety of food on the table (or having spare tobacco for your own use, rather than for trading), not being able to afford the latest iPhone. I would also argue that HN necessarily isn't representative of "average folks". The average HN user is special. Not better, but different. There's a disproportionate amount of entrepreneurs (yes, they are the exception) for example. Plus, there's the survivor bias: if you're here, you probably haven't found it an impossible task to keep out of poverty (even if you ever were close to it). If you had, you wouldn't be here in the first place. But the entire point is moot anyway. If everyone is able to engage in some kind of critical thinking, self control and doing basic math, and still there are a lot of people trapped in these cut-throat contracts, the average person is evidently not sufficiently able to avoid them (and if those things are all it takes to do so, they are evidently not as good at them). But I think this isn't a question of facts, it's a question of ideology: I think it's our responsibility as a society to keep people out of situations where they become practically unable to act freely (even if they only have themselves to blame). You seem to hold the opinion that if they screw up their own lives, we have no obligation to help them and they only owe it to themselves.
- dragontamer 12y ago
  The 9th grade education probably doesn't help. High School dropouts affect America severely... for the rest of their lives. IMO, this is an issue of a failed education system, failing to equip this woman with the skills she needs to do any financial planning. I'm personally of the opinion that we need to have public education for 30+ year olds who are in this state. No amount of assistance is going to help them until we give them financial training to make better decisions. Give high school dropouts in their 30s and 40s an opportunity to grow in society. Maybe she'll actually be able to get that job at Walmart if we train her.
  - kwhitefoot 12y ago
    No amount of financial planning is going to assuage the feeling of being a poorer person because one cannot afford what ones friends, family, or neighbours, all have or aspire to have, or appear to have. A better general education might have some effect. One doesn't merely need the financial planning skill, one needs an incentive to apply it and to suffer the consequences. Yes, I do mean suffer; for many people the facade they present to the world really matters. Standing out from the crowd is a luxury that a lot of people cannot afford. I can afford it because I am lucky enough to have skills that others will pay well for me to exercise. Someone who's only skill is efficient stacking of shelves in the local supermarket has less freedom of action. They cannot claim that the reason they don't have a sofa because they prefer sitting on the floor because that would mark them as being odd. Fitting in is a powerful desire in most people and more powerful when you need the support network. The US, and increasingly the UK, is a great place to be wealthy but it looks from here (Norway) to be rather uncomfortable if you are even a bit less well off than than average.
    - dragontamer 12y ago
      If she's paying $4500 for rent-to-own couches when everyone else is buying them for $1500, then yes, this is a financial planning problem. She gets the couch either way, but in one instance, she gets the couch and keeps $3000 for herself, instead of paying exorbitant fees due to poor credit. (probably because she kept defaulting on loans and no bank trusts her for a standard credit card like everyone else). Bad Credit doesn't just pop up overnight. I do think that in America, you can screw yourself harder than in other countries. There are numerous lifelines, and plenty of credit opportunities... but those close off if you make bad decisions and lose trust. You will never be starving or missing out on critical health care however, due to the food stamps and medicaid programs (which I do support funding)... but building someone up who has reached rock bottom seems to be a difficult problem to solve. There are other problems, like she doesn't have the skills to even pass as a Walmart shelf-stocker. I really don't know what we're supposed to do about that, outside of maybe expand our public education system to include adults.

pluma 12y ago

That's only partially true. Yes, nobody's pointing a gun at their head and forcing them to buy expensive crap. But there's advertising everywhere. Advertising is there to get people to buy things they might otherwise not buy. I'm not against consumerism, but it's absurd to have companies spend billions on getting people to buy their stuff and then blaming the same people for their purchasing habits. Humans are not rational machines. We're social animals. We do a lot of stupid things. But we're not any more stupid for not being able to grow beyond that.

MrZongle2 12y ago
But there's advertising everywhere. Advertising is there to get people to buy things they might otherwise not buy. But if advertising is such an irresistible siren song, how come you and I -- and everybody else on HN -- are not up to our necks in debt to rent-to-own stores? I don't think its because we're special. I think it's because most of us engage in some kind of critical thinking, self control, and can do basic math. It is the responsibility of the individuals themselves.
- pluma 12y ago
  If advertising wouldn't work, there wouldn't be so much of it. Look at yourself critically. How many of your last year's purchasing decisions were based on actual need? And of those, how many times could you have bought something cheaper instead? And no rationalisations about cost and quality and long-term amortisations and whatnot, please. Yes, poor people suck at managing their money. But at the same time the advertising industry focusses on them. A lot of price-based advertising relies on people not looking at it closely enough. Yay, free phones with mobile contracts. I can buy a new sofa for only $50/month (over the next ten years). This ringtone costs only 99 cents (if you subscribe for 3 ringtones per week at a cost of $2.97/week and all the ones you want are in different subscriptions and don't forget the offer code you originally subscribed with or you'll have a hard time cancelling the subscription when you notice it a month from now). Our culture places a lot of emphasis on status symbols and wealth. If you're not wealthy, that's because you're lazy. If you can't afford status symbols to prove your wealth it's because you're a failure as a human being. This is an exaggeration, but it's what the mainstream media tells you and what the billboards shout at you. I'm not saying it's impossible to manage your funds well if you barely have any. I've seen plenty of old widows in Germany be able to make do with welfare because they were used to not being able to afford anything (or even theoretically be able to buy anything if they had the money) throughout the post-war period, but we're talking about people who've learned to cope in a situation where it was entirely possible to freeze or starve to death even if you did everything right. Luxury meant having a variety of food on the table (or having spare tobacco for your own use, rather than for trading), not being able to afford the latest iPhone. I would also argue that HN necessarily isn't representative of "average folks". The average HN user is special. Not better, but different. There's a disproportionate amount of entrepreneurs (yes, they are the exception) for example. Plus, there's the survivor bias: if you're here, you probably haven't found it an impossible task to keep out of poverty (even if you ever were close to it). If you had, you wouldn't be here in the first place. But the entire point is moot anyway. If everyone is able to engage in some kind of critical thinking, self control and doing basic math, and still there are a lot of people trapped in these cut-throat contracts, the average person is evidently not sufficiently able to avoid them (and if those things are all it takes to do so, they are evidently not as good at them). But I think this isn't a question of facts, it's a question of ideology: I think it's our responsibility as a society to keep people out of situations where they become practically unable to act freely (even if they only have themselves to blame). You seem to hold the opinion that if they screw up their own lives, we have no obligation to help them and they only owe it to themselves.
dragontamer 12y ago
The 9th grade education probably doesn't help. High School dropouts affect America severely... for the rest of their lives. IMO, this is an issue of a failed education system, failing to equip this woman with the skills she needs to do any financial planning. I'm personally of the opinion that we need to have public education for 30+ year olds who are in this state. No amount of assistance is going to help them until we give them financial training to make better decisions. Give high school dropouts in their 30s and 40s an opportunity to grow in society. Maybe she'll actually be able to get that job at Walmart if we train her.
- kwhitefoot 12y ago
  No amount of financial planning is going to assuage the feeling of being a poorer person because one cannot afford what ones friends, family, or neighbours, all have or aspire to have, or appear to have. A better general education might have some effect. One doesn't merely need the financial planning skill, one needs an incentive to apply it and to suffer the consequences. Yes, I do mean suffer; for many people the facade they present to the world really matters. Standing out from the crowd is a luxury that a lot of people cannot afford. I can afford it because I am lucky enough to have skills that others will pay well for me to exercise. Someone who's only skill is efficient stacking of shelves in the local supermarket has less freedom of action. They cannot claim that the reason they don't have a sofa because they prefer sitting on the floor because that would mark them as being odd. Fitting in is a powerful desire in most people and more powerful when you need the support network. The US, and increasingly the UK, is a great place to be wealthy but it looks from here (Norway) to be rather uncomfortable if you are even a bit less well off than than average.
  - dragontamer 12y ago
    If she's paying $4500 for rent-to-own couches when everyone else is buying them for $1500, then yes, this is a financial planning problem. She gets the couch either way, but in one instance, she gets the couch and keeps $3000 for herself, instead of paying exorbitant fees due to poor credit. (probably because she kept defaulting on loans and no bank trusts her for a standard credit card like everyone else). Bad Credit doesn't just pop up overnight. I do think that in America, you can screw yourself harder than in other countries. There are numerous lifelines, and plenty of credit opportunities... but those close off if you make bad decisions and lose trust. You will never be starving or missing out on critical health care however, due to the food stamps and medicaid programs (which I do support funding)... but building someone up who has reached rock bottom seems to be a difficult problem to solve. There are other problems, like she doesn't have the skills to even pass as a Walmart shelf-stocker. I really don't know what we're supposed to do about that, outside of maybe expand our public education system to include adults.