5 ms·

To make Debian init-neutral is a great idea in my opinion, just like Linux distro we have many flavors, there is no real reason for mandating systemd to be the

by ausjke 12y ago

To make Debian init-neutral is a great idea in my opinion, just like Linux distro we have many flavors, there is no real reason for mandating systemd to be the sole init system I think. New changes are good or bad, let's give people more choices, the better one will eventually win, or they just co-exist, that's how the nature works, systemd is no different.

Morgawr 12y ago
>To make Debian init-neutral is a great idea in my opinion, just like Linux distro we have many flavors, there is no real reason for mandating systemd to be the sole init system I think. Oh, it's an amazing idea. So I assume you candidate to be a fulltime maintainer of the whole software stack and packages, right? Why don't we support OSS4 too, while we're at it! After all, support for everything is just free of man hours!
- ausjke 12y ago
  How about merging all linux flavors into one so we have one system like MacOS? or Windows? hi they each have lots of different versions to maintain, what a waste of resources. systemd by all means is still new, how can you convince all of us that it is _the_ init system all of a sudden? It's good to have options, for each apps(email,web server,database,you name it) in Linux there are normally a few options too, why is systemd that different?
acdha 12y ago
How much are you willing to pay for those choices? Each init system doubles your testing load, which is already a concern, but more importantly it also means that there are features which are either need to be dropped or which will require time developing abstraction layers for multiple init systems. That might still be worth doing but this is a lot more than saying “Oh, if you don't like vim don't install it”. All of that will require time, effort and be a source of bugs / UI clunkiness which no other operating system has to deal with – I'd much prefer that people pick 1 system and spend time getting closer to the “it just works” level which OS X and Windows have been at for years rather than maintaining a stable of patches and extra code.
- pyre 12y ago
  > “it just works” level which OS X I have experienced issues with launchd which do not exist in the components that it replaced (e.g. cron, init, etc). For example, try setting a cronjob that runs every minute in launchd (e.g. running fetchmail). launchd says, "process exited too quickly" and disables the entry. [I'll note that this was an old example. Hopefully it's been fixed, but it's been far from "just works".]
  - acdha 12y ago
    I was talking about the normal user experience which systemd is designed to handle – e.g. hotplug a USB camera and Chrome can use it for WebRTC. In this specific case, launchd is designed as an init replacement which keeps processes running. The restart throttle is designed to prevent crash loops which are horrible for battery life and tends to fill up logfiles, so it expects the process to run for at least 10 seconds. The easiest way to solve that would be to use it as intended and run fetchmail -d rather than spending the extra overhead restarting fetchmail all of the time.
    - edwintorok 12y ago
      Why can't it look at the exitcode? If you exited with success why does matter how long it runs? The faster it is done with running processes the faster it can go back to sleep.
      - acdha 12y ago
        Think about it from the perspective of the operating system vendor: J. Random Codeslinger never checks return codes and always exits 0 so launchd ends up running the thing semi-constantly until syslog fills up the disk with "Usage: …" messages. If you have a professional sysadmin monitoring things, this gets fixed. If you're the average Mac user, you tell all of your friends that the last OS X release sucks and made your Mac slow and eventually go to the Apple store when your hard drive fills up.
        12y ago

by ausjke 12y ago

Morgawr 12y ago

>To make Debian init-neutral is a great idea in my opinion, just like Linux distro we have many flavors, there is no real reason for mandating systemd to be the sole init system I think. Oh, it's an amazing idea. So I assume you candidate to be a fulltime maintainer of the whole software stack and packages, right? Why don't we support OSS4 too, while we're at it! After all, support for everything is just free of man hours!

ausjke 12y ago
How about merging all linux flavors into one so we have one system like MacOS? or Windows? hi they each have lots of different versions to maintain, what a waste of resources. systemd by all means is still new, how can you convince all of us that it is _the_ init system all of a sudden? It's good to have options, for each apps(email,web server,database,you name it) in Linux there are normally a few options too, why is systemd that different?

acdha 12y ago

How much are you willing to pay for those choices? Each init system doubles your testing load, which is already a concern, but more importantly it also means that there are features which are either need to be dropped or which will require time developing abstraction layers for multiple init systems. That might still be worth doing but this is a lot more than saying “Oh, if you don't like vim don't install it”. All of that will require time, effort and be a source of bugs / UI clunkiness which no other operating system has to deal with – I'd much prefer that people pick 1 system and spend time getting closer to the “it just works” level which OS X and Windows have been at for years rather than maintaining a stable of patches and extra code.

pyre 12y ago
> “it just works” level which OS X I have experienced issues with launchd which do not exist in the components that it replaced (e.g. cron, init, etc). For example, try setting a cronjob that runs every minute in launchd (e.g. running fetchmail). launchd says, "process exited too quickly" and disables the entry. [I'll note that this was an old example. Hopefully it's been fixed, but it's been far from "just works".]
- acdha 12y ago
  I was talking about the normal user experience which systemd is designed to handle – e.g. hotplug a USB camera and Chrome can use it for WebRTC. In this specific case, launchd is designed as an init replacement which keeps processes running. The restart throttle is designed to prevent crash loops which are horrible for battery life and tends to fill up logfiles, so it expects the process to run for at least 10 seconds. The easiest way to solve that would be to use it as intended and run fetchmail -d rather than spending the extra overhead restarting fetchmail all of the time.
  - edwintorok 12y ago
    Why can't it look at the exitcode? If you exited with success why does matter how long it runs? The faster it is done with running processes the faster it can go back to sleep.
    - acdha 12y ago
      Think about it from the perspective of the operating system vendor: J. Random Codeslinger never checks return codes and always exits 0 so launchd ends up running the thing semi-constantly until syslog fills up the disk with "Usage: …" messages. If you have a professional sysadmin monitoring things, this gets fixed. If you're the average Mac user, you tell all of your friends that the last OS X release sucks and made your Mac slow and eventually go to the Apple store when your hard drive fills up.
      - 12y ago