4 ms·

You may want to think of your opinion to be an objective truth, but it isn't. Your explanation that muslim children don't respect female teachers is complete bs

You may want to think of your opinion to be an objective truth, but it isn't. Your explanation that muslim children don't respect female teachers is complete bs, in my opinion. The truth is that most muslim women in Germany, especially the Turkish ones, don't even wear a headscarf. In Germany, I almost never hear "Multikulti" except from extreme right-wing people, and those who share racist opinions, but don't consider themselves Racist. (It's "The Truth", how can it be racism?) There is a well documented effect in that the teacher's expectations are reflected both in subjective grades and objective performance. Another confusing factor is that most Turkish "immigrant" children are anything but immigrants. Their parents or grandparents immigrated to Germany decades ago and helped build the country. But they were low-skilled laborers. And their children suffer from the same adverse selection problem as German "underclass" children do. It's just so much easier to pin this complex problem on a mysterious genetic factor that makes Turks dumber.

junto 12y ago
Woah there. You've extrapolated a number of things that I never stated. Let's revisit this: 'but while it is hard to generalize, there is a strong tendency' I went out of my way not to generalize. I stated a tendency. There is no hard and fast rule here. 'The truth is that most muslim women in Germany, especially the Turkish ones, don't even wear a headscarf.' I did not mention headscarves. Not once. I stated 'misogyny'. The two are not the same. 'I almost never hear "Multikulti" except from extreme right-wing people, and those who share racist opinions, but don't consider themselves Racist.' "Multikulti" was a concept was popularized by the liberal Alliance 90/Green Party. Merkel, of the right leaning CDU stated multi-cuturalism has "utterly failed" back in 2010 [1]. This is a partisan concept. I therefore struggle to see how you can associate the attempt by the German people to have a multi-cultural society as racist. I don't understand how you make that connection? 'There is a well documented effect in that the teacher's expectations are reflected both in subjective grades and objective performance.' That I agree with. 'Another confusing factor is that most Turkish "immigrant" children are anything but immigrants. Their parents or grandparents immigrated to Germany decades ago and helped build the country.' Agreed, these children come from a migration background. I should have made that clearer. My observation was that specifically the boys have a problem with women teachers telling them what to do. This includes female teachers that come from a "Migrationshintergrund". Women having a position of authority over these boys is a problem for them. 'pin this complex problem on a mysterious genetic factor that makes Turks dumber' This one baffles me. I stated that these boys have a discipline problem. I also stated that these children are not achieving their potential because of the misogyny, not because they are dumb. Bottom line is that a misogynistic cultural attitude is prevalent in Turkish society. That misogyny concerns the role of women in the work place. It especially causes problems in schools where women teachers hold positions of authority over young men who do not like, and are not used to, that scenario. As a result come discipline problems that (as you so eloquently put it) 'the teacher's expectations are reflected both in subjective grades and objective performance' results. It is a vicious cycle. Hence, I went out of my way to state that both sides are to blame. You appear to have overlooked that fact. [1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11559451 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11559451
- bayesianhorse 12y ago
  Well, the green party isn't using the word "Multikulti" a lot these days. I do hear it a lot when people want to justify racist beliefs, though. And a lot. The pure fact that there are multiple cultures in Germany is very evident. And it's not just immigrants. Point is: You can't get rid of people that don't suit your cultural preferences. You can't force assimilation. Instead, this constant "assimilation debate" is more a means to scare off foreigners. You didn't say anything about genetics, but others do. Especially the "Sarrazin school" of racism. Strongly associating faults and delinquency to cultural backgrounds or religion isn't that much better, though. Most (purportedly) muslim students don't exhibit mysogyny against female teachers. It is simply wrong to ascribe most or all of these problems to misogyny, even if this explanation is so simple and logical. It also doesn't point to a solution for these problems.
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collyw 12y ago
¨The truth is that most muslim women in Germany, especially the Turkish ones, don't even wear a headscarf.¨ How is that relevant to your argument?
- bayesianhorse 12y ago
  It is relevant in that the headscarf is a symbolic issue in immigration debates in Germany. The biggest ethnic minority in Germany are the descendents of turkish migratory workers. It's a symbol of conservative muslim faith (in the eyes of Germans) and subjugation of women in general. Most muslim organizations and German politicians with a turkish background actually appeal to fellow muslims not to wear headscarves. My point was that there is no widespread refusal of integration, and that misogyny in muslim Germans is usually exaggerated. I didn't want to explain that too thoroughly because the post would have been even longer.

junto 12y ago

Woah there. You've extrapolated a number of things that I never stated. Let's revisit this: 'but while it is hard to generalize, there is a strong tendency' I went out of my way not to generalize. I stated a tendency. There is no hard and fast rule here. 'The truth is that most muslim women in Germany, especially the Turkish ones, don't even wear a headscarf.' I did not mention headscarves. Not once. I stated 'misogyny'. The two are not the same. 'I almost never hear "Multikulti" except from extreme right-wing people, and those who share racist opinions, but don't consider themselves Racist.' "Multikulti" was a concept was popularized by the liberal Alliance 90/Green Party. Merkel, of the right leaning CDU stated multi-cuturalism has "utterly failed" back in 2010 [1]. This is a partisan concept. I therefore struggle to see how you can associate the attempt by the German people to have a multi-cultural society as racist. I don't understand how you make that connection? 'There is a well documented effect in that the teacher's expectations are reflected both in subjective grades and objective performance.' That I agree with. 'Another confusing factor is that most Turkish "immigrant" children are anything but immigrants. Their parents or grandparents immigrated to Germany decades ago and helped build the country.' Agreed, these children come from a migration background. I should have made that clearer. My observation was that specifically the boys have a problem with women teachers telling them what to do. This includes female teachers that come from a "Migrationshintergrund". Women having a position of authority over these boys is a problem for them. 'pin this complex problem on a mysterious genetic factor that makes Turks dumber' This one baffles me. I stated that these boys have a discipline problem. I also stated that these children are not achieving their potential because of the misogyny, not because they are dumb. Bottom line is that a misogynistic cultural attitude is prevalent in Turkish society. That misogyny concerns the role of women in the work place. It especially causes problems in schools where women teachers hold positions of authority over young men who do not like, and are not used to, that scenario. As a result come discipline problems that (as you so eloquently put it) 'the teacher's expectations are reflected both in subjective grades and objective performance' results. It is a vicious cycle. Hence, I went out of my way to state that both sides are to blame. You appear to have overlooked that fact. [1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11559451 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11559451

bayesianhorse 12y ago
Well, the green party isn't using the word "Multikulti" a lot these days. I do hear it a lot when people want to justify racist beliefs, though. And a lot. The pure fact that there are multiple cultures in Germany is very evident. And it's not just immigrants. Point is: You can't get rid of people that don't suit your cultural preferences. You can't force assimilation. Instead, this constant "assimilation debate" is more a means to scare off foreigners. You didn't say anything about genetics, but others do. Especially the "Sarrazin school" of racism. Strongly associating faults and delinquency to cultural backgrounds or religion isn't that much better, though. Most (purportedly) muslim students don't exhibit mysogyny against female teachers. It is simply wrong to ascribe most or all of these problems to misogyny, even if this explanation is so simple and logical. It also doesn't point to a solution for these problems.
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collyw 12y ago

¨The truth is that most muslim women in Germany, especially the Turkish ones, don't even wear a headscarf.¨ How is that relevant to your argument?

bayesianhorse 12y ago
It is relevant in that the headscarf is a symbolic issue in immigration debates in Germany. The biggest ethnic minority in Germany are the descendents of turkish migratory workers. It's a symbol of conservative muslim faith (in the eyes of Germans) and subjugation of women in general. Most muslim organizations and German politicians with a turkish background actually appeal to fellow muslims not to wear headscarves. My point was that there is no widespread refusal of integration, and that misogyny in muslim Germans is usually exaggerated. I didn't want to explain that too thoroughly because the post would have been even longer.