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> This is cultural problem on both sides [...] Why both? And why just a cultural problem? Did you mean that the Germans could/ought to smack the disrespectfu

> This is cultural problem on both sides [...] Why both? And why just a cultural problem? Did you mean that the Germans could/ought to smack the disrespectful Turkish kids around and that that would make things improve? Otherwise I can't make sense of the idea that there is blame on both sides.

junto 12y ago
bayesianhorse said it better than I can: 'There is a well documented effect in that the teacher's expectations are reflected both in subjective grades and objective performance.' Nobody needs to be "smacked". Teachers have observer bias and negative expectations. Turkish boys don't like women telling them what to do. Both need to alter their attitudes.
- peterfirefly 12y ago
  There you go again with "both". Turkish boys have a greater tendency to misbehave than German boys (and Danish boys, Swedish boys, etc). We seem to agree that those Turkish boys (and their parents) ought to change their attitudes. And everybody else around them also needs them to change their attitudes. So who is the other party who needs to change? Edit: inserted the word 'also' + emphasized to word 'needs' for clarity.
  - bayesianhorse 12y ago
    Much of these difference can be explained by socioeconomic status. Germans from equally poor backgrounds don't behave any better. They may not speak heavy dialect when they disrespect a female teacher, but otherwise it's much the same. And when you are from a muslim background and you want to disrespect your teacher, you'll choose other words and justifications than a German would. I'd caution against overinterpreting juvenile power plays in terms of religious biases though.
    - collyw 12y ago
      I was thinking the same. We don have a lot of racism where I come from, despite having a fairly large Indian population. We do have a lot of problems with people at the lower end of the socioeconomic scale.

junto 12y ago

bayesianhorse said it better than I can: 'There is a well documented effect in that the teacher's expectations are reflected both in subjective grades and objective performance.' Nobody needs to be "smacked". Teachers have observer bias and negative expectations. Turkish boys don't like women telling them what to do. Both need to alter their attitudes.

peterfirefly 12y ago
There you go again with "both". Turkish boys have a greater tendency to misbehave than German boys (and Danish boys, Swedish boys, etc). We seem to agree that those Turkish boys (and their parents) ought to change their attitudes. And everybody else around them also needs them to change their attitudes. So who is the other party who needs to change? Edit: inserted the word 'also' + emphasized to word 'needs' for clarity.
- bayesianhorse 12y ago
  Much of these difference can be explained by socioeconomic status. Germans from equally poor backgrounds don't behave any better. They may not speak heavy dialect when they disrespect a female teacher, but otherwise it's much the same. And when you are from a muslim background and you want to disrespect your teacher, you'll choose other words and justifications than a German would. I'd caution against overinterpreting juvenile power plays in terms of religious biases though.
  - collyw 12y ago
    I was thinking the same. We don have a lot of racism where I come from, despite having a fairly large Indian population. We do have a lot of problems with people at the lower end of the socioeconomic scale.