4 ms·

I know a fair few teachers in Germany who work in a 'Gymnasium', which is essentially the top tier secondary school. An equivalent to an old UK grammar school c

by junto 12y ago

I know a fair few teachers in Germany who work in a 'Gymnasium', which is essentially the top tier secondary school. An equivalent to an old UK grammar school concept. This is going to sound pretty harsh, but while it is hard to generalize, there is a strong tendency for children who come from Turkish backgrounds (especially boys) to be disruptive influences in class. This starts at an early age, and thus tracking tends to dump these children in Realschule and Hauptschule. This disruption in class is especially the case with female teachers, for whom the boys hold little respect for. Their culture appears to hold little respect for women in the workplace. The father's hold similar disrespecting views at parent evenings as well. The effect is reversed with male teachers. This is cultural problem on both sides and as a result the children lose out. Children that could have been successful academically are penalized both by the system's inherent failure to integrate migrants and as a direct result of their family's misogyny. Germany likes to think that it is "Multikulti" [1], but my experiences so far seem to show a multi-culturalism that is a "pretty sheen" over the top of suspicion and disrespect. London has a far greater multi-culturalism than I have seen here in Germany. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multikulti http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multikulti

llcoolv 12y ago
If the cause of the problem is the negative attitude towards women on Turkish side, how is the problem on both sides? Or sexism is something acceptable?
- bayesianhorse 12y ago
  Somehow the purported negative attitudes of Turks against women is considered more significant than the negative attitudes of the majority Germans against the minority Turks.
- junto 12y ago
  Teachers have observer bias and negative expectations of Turkish boys. Turkish boys don't like women telling them what to do. Both need to alter their attitudes. Teaching is a popular career path for many women in Germany. It offers many benefits (especially as a civil servant). That isn't going to change (and nor should it). So if Turkish boys do have a problem with that, then they need to get over it.
  - collyw 12y ago
    "Both need to change their attitudes." If this is the case, Turkish boys changing their attitudes should automatically lead to teachers changing theirs. If the teachers changed their attitudes, you wouldn't expect Turkish boys to change theirs.
peterfirefly 12y ago
> This is cultural problem on both sides [...] Why both? And why just a cultural problem? Did you mean that the Germans could/ought to smack the disrespectful Turkish kids around and that that would make things improve? Otherwise I can't make sense of the idea that there is blame on both sides.
- junto 12y ago
  bayesianhorse said it better than I can: 'There is a well documented effect in that the teacher's expectations are reflected both in subjective grades and objective performance.' Nobody needs to be "smacked". Teachers have observer bias and negative expectations. Turkish boys don't like women telling them what to do. Both need to alter their attitudes.
  - peterfirefly 12y ago
    There you go again with "both". Turkish boys have a greater tendency to misbehave than German boys (and Danish boys, Swedish boys, etc). We seem to agree that those Turkish boys (and their parents) ought to change their attitudes. And everybody else around them also needs them to change their attitudes. So who is the other party who needs to change? Edit: inserted the word 'also' + emphasized to word 'needs' for clarity.
    - bayesianhorse 12y ago
      Much of these difference can be explained by socioeconomic status. Germans from equally poor backgrounds don't behave any better. They may not speak heavy dialect when they disrespect a female teacher, but otherwise it's much the same. And when you are from a muslim background and you want to disrespect your teacher, you'll choose other words and justifications than a German would. I'd caution against overinterpreting juvenile power plays in terms of religious biases though.
      - collyw 12y ago
        I was thinking the same. We don have a lot of racism where I come from, despite having a fairly large Indian population. We do have a lot of problems with people at the lower end of the socioeconomic scale.
bayesianhorse 12y ago
You may want to think of your opinion to be an objective truth, but it isn't. Your explanation that muslim children don't respect female teachers is complete bs, in my opinion. The truth is that most muslim women in Germany, especially the Turkish ones, don't even wear a headscarf. In Germany, I almost never hear "Multikulti" except from extreme right-wing people, and those who share racist opinions, but don't consider themselves Racist. (It's "The Truth", how can it be racism?) There is a well documented effect in that the teacher's expectations are reflected both in subjective grades and objective performance. Another confusing factor is that most Turkish "immigrant" children are anything but immigrants. Their parents or grandparents immigrated to Germany decades ago and helped build the country. But they were low-skilled laborers. And their children suffer from the same adverse selection problem as German "underclass" children do. It's just so much easier to pin this complex problem on a mysterious genetic factor that makes Turks dumber.
- junto 12y ago
  Woah there. You've extrapolated a number of things that I never stated. Let's revisit this: 'but while it is hard to generalize, there is a strong tendency' I went out of my way not to generalize. I stated a tendency. There is no hard and fast rule here. 'The truth is that most muslim women in Germany, especially the Turkish ones, don't even wear a headscarf.' I did not mention headscarves. Not once. I stated 'misogyny'. The two are not the same. 'I almost never hear "Multikulti" except from extreme right-wing people, and those who share racist opinions, but don't consider themselves Racist.' "Multikulti" was a concept was popularized by the liberal Alliance 90/Green Party. Merkel, of the right leaning CDU stated multi-cuturalism has "utterly failed" back in 2010 [1]. This is a partisan concept. I therefore struggle to see how you can associate the attempt by the German people to have a multi-cultural society as racist. I don't understand how you make that connection? 'There is a well documented effect in that the teacher's expectations are reflected both in subjective grades and objective performance.' That I agree with. 'Another confusing factor is that most Turkish "immigrant" children are anything but immigrants. Their parents or grandparents immigrated to Germany decades ago and helped build the country.' Agreed, these children come from a migration background. I should have made that clearer. My observation was that specifically the boys have a problem with women teachers telling them what to do. This includes female teachers that come from a "Migrationshintergrund". Women having a position of authority over these boys is a problem for them. 'pin this complex problem on a mysterious genetic factor that makes Turks dumber' This one baffles me. I stated that these boys have a discipline problem. I also stated that these children are not achieving their potential because of the misogyny, not because they are dumb. Bottom line is that a misogynistic cultural attitude is prevalent in Turkish society. That misogyny concerns the role of women in the work place. It especially causes problems in schools where women teachers hold positions of authority over young men who do not like, and are not used to, that scenario. As a result come discipline problems that (as you so eloquently put it) 'the teacher's expectations are reflected both in subjective grades and objective performance' results. It is a vicious cycle. Hence, I went out of my way to state that both sides are to blame. You appear to have overlooked that fact. [1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11559451 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11559451
firepoet 12y ago
This actually sounds like a great way to help integrate folks into the German culture. As more and more disruptive children are relegated, and more parents ask, "Why?" receiving the answer, "You don't respect women," perhaps behaviors will slowly change. I wonder what other ways would work better?
- bayesianhorse 12y ago
  Is that irony? I hope so, but I can't tell. Slapping people around is usually not the way to change their attitudes... Currently there is a perverse segregation going on. German parents (and any immigrants who know what's going on) send their children to schools who have a low rate of immigrant students. And with good justification. But this also means that the best teachers and other resources go to these schools, while creating schools with lots of problems, worse equipment, worse teachers and a thorough helping of students whose parents don't object to low quality.

by junto 12y ago

llcoolv 12y ago

If the cause of the problem is the negative attitude towards women on Turkish side, how is the problem on both sides? Or sexism is something acceptable?

bayesianhorse 12y ago
Somehow the purported negative attitudes of Turks against women is considered more significant than the negative attitudes of the majority Germans against the minority Turks.
junto 12y ago
Teachers have observer bias and negative expectations of Turkish boys. Turkish boys don't like women telling them what to do. Both need to alter their attitudes. Teaching is a popular career path for many women in Germany. It offers many benefits (especially as a civil servant). That isn't going to change (and nor should it). So if Turkish boys do have a problem with that, then they need to get over it.
- collyw 12y ago
  "Both need to change their attitudes." If this is the case, Turkish boys changing their attitudes should automatically lead to teachers changing theirs. If the teachers changed their attitudes, you wouldn't expect Turkish boys to change theirs.

peterfirefly 12y ago

> This is cultural problem on both sides [...] Why both? And why just a cultural problem? Did you mean that the Germans could/ought to smack the disrespectful Turkish kids around and that that would make things improve? Otherwise I can't make sense of the idea that there is blame on both sides.

junto 12y ago
bayesianhorse said it better than I can: 'There is a well documented effect in that the teacher's expectations are reflected both in subjective grades and objective performance.' Nobody needs to be "smacked". Teachers have observer bias and negative expectations. Turkish boys don't like women telling them what to do. Both need to alter their attitudes.
- peterfirefly 12y ago
  There you go again with "both". Turkish boys have a greater tendency to misbehave than German boys (and Danish boys, Swedish boys, etc). We seem to agree that those Turkish boys (and their parents) ought to change their attitudes. And everybody else around them also needs them to change their attitudes. So who is the other party who needs to change? Edit: inserted the word 'also' + emphasized to word 'needs' for clarity.
  - bayesianhorse 12y ago
    Much of these difference can be explained by socioeconomic status. Germans from equally poor backgrounds don't behave any better. They may not speak heavy dialect when they disrespect a female teacher, but otherwise it's much the same. And when you are from a muslim background and you want to disrespect your teacher, you'll choose other words and justifications than a German would. I'd caution against overinterpreting juvenile power plays in terms of religious biases though.
    - collyw 12y ago
      I was thinking the same. We don have a lot of racism where I come from, despite having a fairly large Indian population. We do have a lot of problems with people at the lower end of the socioeconomic scale.

bayesianhorse 12y ago

You may want to think of your opinion to be an objective truth, but it isn't. Your explanation that muslim children don't respect female teachers is complete bs, in my opinion. The truth is that most muslim women in Germany, especially the Turkish ones, don't even wear a headscarf. In Germany, I almost never hear "Multikulti" except from extreme right-wing people, and those who share racist opinions, but don't consider themselves Racist. (It's "The Truth", how can it be racism?) There is a well documented effect in that the teacher's expectations are reflected both in subjective grades and objective performance. Another confusing factor is that most Turkish "immigrant" children are anything but immigrants. Their parents or grandparents immigrated to Germany decades ago and helped build the country. But they were low-skilled laborers. And their children suffer from the same adverse selection problem as German "underclass" children do. It's just so much easier to pin this complex problem on a mysterious genetic factor that makes Turks dumber.

junto 12y ago
Woah there. You've extrapolated a number of things that I never stated. Let's revisit this: 'but while it is hard to generalize, there is a strong tendency' I went out of my way not to generalize. I stated a tendency. There is no hard and fast rule here. 'The truth is that most muslim women in Germany, especially the Turkish ones, don't even wear a headscarf.' I did not mention headscarves. Not once. I stated 'misogyny'. The two are not the same. 'I almost never hear "Multikulti" except from extreme right-wing people, and those who share racist opinions, but don't consider themselves Racist.' "Multikulti" was a concept was popularized by the liberal Alliance 90/Green Party. Merkel, of the right leaning CDU stated multi-cuturalism has "utterly failed" back in 2010 [1]. This is a partisan concept. I therefore struggle to see how you can associate the attempt by the German people to have a multi-cultural society as racist. I don't understand how you make that connection? 'There is a well documented effect in that the teacher's expectations are reflected both in subjective grades and objective performance.' That I agree with. 'Another confusing factor is that most Turkish "immigrant" children are anything but immigrants. Their parents or grandparents immigrated to Germany decades ago and helped build the country.' Agreed, these children come from a migration background. I should have made that clearer. My observation was that specifically the boys have a problem with women teachers telling them what to do. This includes female teachers that come from a "Migrationshintergrund". Women having a position of authority over these boys is a problem for them. 'pin this complex problem on a mysterious genetic factor that makes Turks dumber' This one baffles me. I stated that these boys have a discipline problem. I also stated that these children are not achieving their potential because of the misogyny, not because they are dumb. Bottom line is that a misogynistic cultural attitude is prevalent in Turkish society. That misogyny concerns the role of women in the work place. It especially causes problems in schools where women teachers hold positions of authority over young men who do not like, and are not used to, that scenario. As a result come discipline problems that (as you so eloquently put it) 'the teacher's expectations are reflected both in subjective grades and objective performance' results. It is a vicious cycle. Hence, I went out of my way to state that both sides are to blame. You appear to have overlooked that fact. [1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11559451 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11559451

firepoet 12y ago

This actually sounds like a great way to help integrate folks into the German culture. As more and more disruptive children are relegated, and more parents ask, "Why?" receiving the answer, "You don't respect women," perhaps behaviors will slowly change. I wonder what other ways would work better?

bayesianhorse 12y ago
Is that irony? I hope so, but I can't tell. Slapping people around is usually not the way to change their attitudes... Currently there is a perverse segregation going on. German parents (and any immigrants who know what's going on) send their children to schools who have a low rate of immigrant students. And with good justification. But this also means that the best teachers and other resources go to these schools, while creating schools with lots of problems, worse equipment, worse teachers and a thorough helping of students whose parents don't object to low quality.