4 ms·

Early "tracking", putting children in a performance-related track, is a big problem in Germany. It seriously hinders the educational success of those put in low

Early "tracking", putting children in a performance-related track, is a big problem in Germany. It seriously hinders the educational success of those put in lower tracks. However, these tracks are only superficially about academic success. The reality is that it's more about ethnicity and parent's background. Turkish children are seen by many Germans as genetically less intelligent than their "pure" German peers. You won't hear that sentiment very often, and I find this attitude absolutely horrifying, but this has been shown by social studies and opinion polls. The result is that children from a foreign or poor background have far less chances to get into the academic track, and a lot of people think that's purely because of different abilities. The result is a system that struggles with social mobility, compared to other European countries. And some part of it actually has to do with early vocational training, because choosing an apprenticeship when being capable of a well-paying university degree does hold back social mobility.

junto 12y ago
I know a fair few teachers in Germany who work in a 'Gymnasium', which is essentially the top tier secondary school. An equivalent to an old UK grammar school concept. This is going to sound pretty harsh, but while it is hard to generalize, there is a strong tendency for children who come from Turkish backgrounds (especially boys) to be disruptive influences in class. This starts at an early age, and thus tracking tends to dump these children in Realschule and Hauptschule. This disruption in class is especially the case with female teachers, for whom the boys hold little respect for. Their culture appears to hold little respect for women in the workplace. The father's hold similar disrespecting views at parent evenings as well. The effect is reversed with male teachers. This is cultural problem on both sides and as a result the children lose out. Children that could have been successful academically are penalized both by the system's inherent failure to integrate migrants and as a direct result of their family's misogyny. Germany likes to think that it is "Multikulti" [1], but my experiences so far seem to show a multi-culturalism that is a "pretty sheen" over the top of suspicion and disrespect. London has a far greater multi-culturalism than I have seen here in Germany. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multikulti http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multikulti
- llcoolv 12y ago
  If the cause of the problem is the negative attitude towards women on Turkish side, how is the problem on both sides? Or sexism is something acceptable?
  - bayesianhorse 12y ago
    Somehow the purported negative attitudes of Turks against women is considered more significant than the negative attitudes of the majority Germans against the minority Turks.
  - junto 12y ago
    Teachers have observer bias and negative expectations of Turkish boys. Turkish boys don't like women telling them what to do. Both need to alter their attitudes. Teaching is a popular career path for many women in Germany. It offers many benefits (especially as a civil servant). That isn't going to change (and nor should it). So if Turkish boys do have a problem with that, then they need to get over it.
    - collyw 12y ago
      "Both need to change their attitudes." If this is the case, Turkish boys changing their attitudes should automatically lead to teachers changing theirs. If the teachers changed their attitudes, you wouldn't expect Turkish boys to change theirs.
- peterfirefly 12y ago
  > This is cultural problem on both sides [...] Why both? And why just a cultural problem? Did you mean that the Germans could/ought to smack the disrespectful Turkish kids around and that that would make things improve? Otherwise I can't make sense of the idea that there is blame on both sides.
  - junto 12y ago
    bayesianhorse said it better than I can: 'There is a well documented effect in that the teacher's expectations are reflected both in subjective grades and objective performance.' Nobody needs to be "smacked". Teachers have observer bias and negative expectations. Turkish boys don't like women telling them what to do. Both need to alter their attitudes.
shamney 12y ago
any evidence of systematic academic discrimination? any evidence of equal abilities across all ethnic groups in Germany?
- bayesianhorse 12y ago
  It doesn't work like that. "Systematic academic discrimination" and "unequal abilities" are undistinguishable, so you can't really prove or disprove either. There were instances where children from Roma families were put into special education without any examination. It's impossible to determine genetic differences in intelligence between different ethnicities. Twin studies don't work for that. One study which compared children of German women and black US soldiers did not find a difference between those children and German children raised under similar circumstances. What we do know is that differences in ethnicities don't tend to hold up against other explanatory factors. We also know about the effect of subjective bias on student-teacher relationships, and a strong tendency of believing other ethnicities to be less intelligent.

junto 12y ago

I know a fair few teachers in Germany who work in a 'Gymnasium', which is essentially the top tier secondary school. An equivalent to an old UK grammar school concept. This is going to sound pretty harsh, but while it is hard to generalize, there is a strong tendency for children who come from Turkish backgrounds (especially boys) to be disruptive influences in class. This starts at an early age, and thus tracking tends to dump these children in Realschule and Hauptschule. This disruption in class is especially the case with female teachers, for whom the boys hold little respect for. Their culture appears to hold little respect for women in the workplace. The father's hold similar disrespecting views at parent evenings as well. The effect is reversed with male teachers. This is cultural problem on both sides and as a result the children lose out. Children that could have been successful academically are penalized both by the system's inherent failure to integrate migrants and as a direct result of their family's misogyny. Germany likes to think that it is "Multikulti" [1], but my experiences so far seem to show a multi-culturalism that is a "pretty sheen" over the top of suspicion and disrespect. London has a far greater multi-culturalism than I have seen here in Germany. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multikulti http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multikulti

llcoolv 12y ago
If the cause of the problem is the negative attitude towards women on Turkish side, how is the problem on both sides? Or sexism is something acceptable?
- bayesianhorse 12y ago
  Somehow the purported negative attitudes of Turks against women is considered more significant than the negative attitudes of the majority Germans against the minority Turks.
- junto 12y ago
  Teachers have observer bias and negative expectations of Turkish boys. Turkish boys don't like women telling them what to do. Both need to alter their attitudes. Teaching is a popular career path for many women in Germany. It offers many benefits (especially as a civil servant). That isn't going to change (and nor should it). So if Turkish boys do have a problem with that, then they need to get over it.
  - collyw 12y ago
    "Both need to change their attitudes." If this is the case, Turkish boys changing their attitudes should automatically lead to teachers changing theirs. If the teachers changed their attitudes, you wouldn't expect Turkish boys to change theirs.
peterfirefly 12y ago
> This is cultural problem on both sides [...] Why both? And why just a cultural problem? Did you mean that the Germans could/ought to smack the disrespectful Turkish kids around and that that would make things improve? Otherwise I can't make sense of the idea that there is blame on both sides.
- junto 12y ago
  bayesianhorse said it better than I can: 'There is a well documented effect in that the teacher's expectations are reflected both in subjective grades and objective performance.' Nobody needs to be "smacked". Teachers have observer bias and negative expectations. Turkish boys don't like women telling them what to do. Both need to alter their attitudes.

shamney 12y ago

any evidence of systematic academic discrimination? any evidence of equal abilities across all ethnic groups in Germany?

bayesianhorse 12y ago
It doesn't work like that. "Systematic academic discrimination" and "unequal abilities" are undistinguishable, so you can't really prove or disprove either. There were instances where children from Roma families were put into special education without any examination. It's impossible to determine genetic differences in intelligence between different ethnicities. Twin studies don't work for that. One study which compared children of German women and black US soldiers did not find a difference between those children and German children raised under similar circumstances. What we do know is that differences in ethnicities don't tend to hold up against other explanatory factors. We also know about the effect of subjective bias on student-teacher relationships, and a strong tendency of believing other ethnicities to be less intelligent.