5 ms·

It all sounds good until you get to the part where they don't include same sex couples. This is why a non-religious entity should oversee the project. I imagin

by thret 12y ago

It all sounds good until you get to the part where they don't include same sex couples. This is why a non-religious entity should oversee the project. I imagine a family tree for our entire species that also included DNA would be medically quite useful. Some day, perhaps.

CaveTech 12y ago
Serious question: Do same sex couples really contribute to the worlds family tree? Technically their gene pool ends when that decision is made.
- aaronbrethorst 12y ago
  Sure. See http://itsconceivablenow.com/surrogacy/ http://itsconceivablenow.com/surrogacy/ and https://www.pacrepro.com https://www.pacrepro.com for two random selections made from 20 seconds consulting Google.
  - wwweston 12y ago
    One could make a distinction between parenting and parentage, and under such a distinction there's not really any such thing as same-sex parentage yet. (And this distinction is completely orthogonal to the question of whether same-sex couples get the right to be legally recognized as a couple or parents.) I imagine that over time, any purported complete genealogy will make those distinctions but come to include information about both.
    - akbar501 12y ago
      > One could make a distinction between parenting and parentage, and under such a distinction there's not really any such thing as same-sex parentage yet. While both people in a same sex couple cannot claim parentage on the same child, one parent can. With multiple children each partner could claim parentage on one child, but not the other. This is not different than a 2nd marriage where each hetero partner can claim parentage on only 1 child.
      - vidarh 12y ago
        But in genealogy, you would not tend to want to record the person as a child of both of them, but to record the birth parents. In fact, in many instances you would not model "birth of couple X" but "person A and person B were married between years ...", "person C has father B and mother D". Exactly because re-marriages and adultery, and children born out of wedlock has always been common (and known), so even if dealing with same sex couples is a reasonably new thing, dealing with children where linking their parentage to a specific couple is nothing new. Of course, the practice of lying about family history is equally old, so in practice most genealogy becomes unreliable very quickly. In my own family tree, we have a child who in official registers is listed as having a mother we have lots of further data on, and the father is listed as a "Friedrich Denneche, travelling hat-maker from Bremen". Problem is at the time (early 1800's I think), everyone had to register with local police when entering Oslo, and there is no record of any travelling hat-maker from Bremen. Nor did my dad find any records in Germany (though it's possible that there would be guild-records he did not find, he never got a chance to spend much time looking at German records) that matched. His theory, which of course can't be proven, was that the real dad was the mothers brother-in-law. Especially as he took her in and later adopted the child and she lived with him and his wife (talk about awkward situation if my dads theory is true...). But at the time this happened, sexual relations between in-laws was legally considered incest in Norway, and it was a crime not to list the father on the birth certificate, and a crime to lie on it, so if the theory is true she was in a bind: she had to put down a father, but could not put down the real father without even worse problems, and could not put down someone who might find out and object. Inventing a person nobody would expect to be able to find would have been a safe way out.
    - rmc 12y ago
      there's not really any such thing as same-sex parentage yet. Yes there is. Many countries have gender recognition laws which trans people to legally recognised as their true gender. A person can be genetically decended from two women.
- zck 12y ago
  If someone doesn't have a child, are they not part of a family tree? They have no descendants, but certainly are part of a family.
  - clarkm 12y ago
    If you've ever done genealogy, you quickly realize that those individuals don't matter. People care most about people that they are descended from -- not their siblings or other non-lineal ancestors. And while people recognize adoption, they often care more about their blood relatives. Hence, the proliferation of Y-chromosome and mtDNA genetic genealogy.
- akbar501 12y ago
  Good question. Yes, same sex couples do contribute to the world's family tree. I don't know of about all possibilities, but the following are examples I know of personally. 1.) One of my friends has a daughter. He came from a very conservative family, married, had a child, then finally had a conversation with his wife explaining his situation. He's gay, in a relationship and has contributed to the world's family tree. 2.) Lesbian couple. Both wanted kids, so a friend of theirs (straight) contributed sperm. So, one of the partners has definitely contributed to the world's family tree.
  - GuiA 12y ago
    Right, but if you drew a graph where nodes are humans and edges are links of genetic parentship, then you can build a complete graph without having to be aware of gay relationships. There's nothing morally wrong or right about this statement, it's just a mathematical property of a very particular social graph.
    - jeremysmyth 12y ago
      A complete graph (by some definition of "complete") documents the knowledge of who both parents are, and there are many situations where you cannot get such knowledge for practical or legal reasons.
    - troels 12y ago
      Depends on what exactly it is you want to map. From a purely genetic perspective you're right, but being a parent is certainly more than just contributing sperm/eggs. And besides - it's very hard to know if someone is indeed the biological father of a child, without resorting to dna testing. Who's the mother tends to be a bit more accurate, although that's also something that could be faked.
    - rmc 12y ago
      Family Trees (& software) support adoption. The "genetic only" horse bolted long ago. Why support adoption for different sex couples but not same sex couples?
- rmc 12y ago
  Adoption, children from previous marriage, artifical insemination and trans people are situtations where the family tree continues. Family trees also work sideways. If someone's brother marries a man, then that other man is the uncle to that person's children.
patio11 12y ago
Much like criticisms of the Catholic healthcare system for choices involved with starting and ending lives, I'd imagine the Mormons think "I can't help but noticing that we had to put in a hundred years of work before we had something impressive enough to justify your criticism, but if you want to replicate it to nose tweak us, I suppose that's going to be an educational experience all around."
- ggreer 12y ago
  At some point, a set of beliefs is so harmful that it would be borderline-unethical not to criticize them. Would you have made a similar comment if the Church of Latter-day Saints refused to recognize mixed-race marriages? In case you didn't know, such racism was LDS dogma until 1978. This project is impressive in its comprehensiveness, and I'm glad an organization has undertaken it. Still, the discriminatory, homophobic dogmas of the LDS church cannot be ignored, and criticism of these beliefs should not be discouraged. Only through discourse can they be challenged and obsoleted. The sooner that happens, the better.
  - elpachuco 12y ago
    >>such racism was LDS dogma until 1978 Good to know. More proof all religions are crap.
    - davidw 12y ago
      Given: * patio11 is, afaik, a practicing Catholic. * patio11 contributes a great deal to this site. * He probably has a thick skin about it, but comments like that are probably not something he likes or will encourage him to use a site. My conclusion is that anything that takes us that far off topic should be flagged because it may have a negative impact on the value I get from the site. I came here to talk about startups and hacking, not religion or politics.
      - chroma 12y ago
        If patio11 was a Scientologist, would you say the same thing? We all draw a line somewhere. If you would react to Scientology differently, remember that the Catholic church has caused (and is causing) much more harm than the Church of Scientology. The former has burned people at the stake, conspired with the Nazis, helped spread AIDS, and covered up child rape. Note: I respect patio11 immensely and wish him nothing but happiness. I simply want to ensure your views are consistent. Edit: Can you answer my question more explicitly? Your response comes across as a tentative "yes" but I'm not certain.
vidarh 12y ago
Keep in mind that the Mormon's church has a very specific intent for this: The baptism of your ancestors. For them, recording a same-sex couple - disregarding that they don't agree with it - serves no purpose. So their project certainly is no replacement for a secular genealogical database, but it is still a fantastic source of data (my very-much atheist dad made extensive use of their services - he was able to get microfilm copies of Norwegian church books sent from Utah to the Mormon church in Oslo with much less effort than getting hold of copies of the records in Norway - in most cases the alternative would be to travel around the country to visit the specific churches and go through the actual paper copies)
barking 12y ago
Your comment just made me realise that family trees are going to become a lot more complicated in the future with same sex couples, sperm/egg donors, surrogacy etc. Also makes me wonder how an adopted person constructs a family tree.
- aaronbrethorst 12y ago
  http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/05/16/dna-site-23andme-outed-parents-who-gave-their-first-baby-up-for-adoption/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/05/16/dna-site-...
joshdance 12y ago
Seems that religious entities are the only ones who care enough to try such a project. I am not aware of any other large scale family history project.
wglb 12y ago
It all sounds good until you get to the part where they don't include same sex couples It wouldn't at all surprise me that this eventually changes. If you look at the history, you will notice that their beliefs have changed in several significant ways over their history. As a side note, since my ancestors came to America in the 1850s, there has been at least one person in each generation that is very interested in family history. The effort got a boost when my uncle became Mormon shortly after he started his family. (An event not without controversy in the family.) The resources available for genealogy research as a result of this work are quite staggering.

by thret 12y ago

CaveTech 12y ago

Serious question: Do same sex couples really contribute to the worlds family tree? Technically their gene pool ends when that decision is made.

aaronbrethorst 12y ago
Sure. See http://itsconceivablenow.com/surrogacy/ http://itsconceivablenow.com/surrogacy/ and https://www.pacrepro.com https://www.pacrepro.com for two random selections made from 20 seconds consulting Google.
- wwweston 12y ago
  One could make a distinction between parenting and parentage, and under such a distinction there's not really any such thing as same-sex parentage yet. (And this distinction is completely orthogonal to the question of whether same-sex couples get the right to be legally recognized as a couple or parents.) I imagine that over time, any purported complete genealogy will make those distinctions but come to include information about both.
  - akbar501 12y ago
    > One could make a distinction between parenting and parentage, and under such a distinction there's not really any such thing as same-sex parentage yet. While both people in a same sex couple cannot claim parentage on the same child, one parent can. With multiple children each partner could claim parentage on one child, but not the other. This is not different than a 2nd marriage where each hetero partner can claim parentage on only 1 child.
    - vidarh 12y ago
      But in genealogy, you would not tend to want to record the person as a child of both of them, but to record the birth parents. In fact, in many instances you would not model "birth of couple X" but "person A and person B were married between years ...", "person C has father B and mother D". Exactly because re-marriages and adultery, and children born out of wedlock has always been common (and known), so even if dealing with same sex couples is a reasonably new thing, dealing with children where linking their parentage to a specific couple is nothing new. Of course, the practice of lying about family history is equally old, so in practice most genealogy becomes unreliable very quickly. In my own family tree, we have a child who in official registers is listed as having a mother we have lots of further data on, and the father is listed as a "Friedrich Denneche, travelling hat-maker from Bremen". Problem is at the time (early 1800's I think), everyone had to register with local police when entering Oslo, and there is no record of any travelling hat-maker from Bremen. Nor did my dad find any records in Germany (though it's possible that there would be guild-records he did not find, he never got a chance to spend much time looking at German records) that matched. His theory, which of course can't be proven, was that the real dad was the mothers brother-in-law. Especially as he took her in and later adopted the child and she lived with him and his wife (talk about awkward situation if my dads theory is true...). But at the time this happened, sexual relations between in-laws was legally considered incest in Norway, and it was a crime not to list the father on the birth certificate, and a crime to lie on it, so if the theory is true she was in a bind: she had to put down a father, but could not put down the real father without even worse problems, and could not put down someone who might find out and object. Inventing a person nobody would expect to be able to find would have been a safe way out.
  - rmc 12y ago
    there's not really any such thing as same-sex parentage yet. Yes there is. Many countries have gender recognition laws which trans people to legally recognised as their true gender. A person can be genetically decended from two women.
zck 12y ago
If someone doesn't have a child, are they not part of a family tree? They have no descendants, but certainly are part of a family.
- clarkm 12y ago
  If you've ever done genealogy, you quickly realize that those individuals don't matter. People care most about people that they are descended from -- not their siblings or other non-lineal ancestors. And while people recognize adoption, they often care more about their blood relatives. Hence, the proliferation of Y-chromosome and mtDNA genetic genealogy.
akbar501 12y ago
Good question. Yes, same sex couples do contribute to the world's family tree. I don't know of about all possibilities, but the following are examples I know of personally. 1.) One of my friends has a daughter. He came from a very conservative family, married, had a child, then finally had a conversation with his wife explaining his situation. He's gay, in a relationship and has contributed to the world's family tree. 2.) Lesbian couple. Both wanted kids, so a friend of theirs (straight) contributed sperm. So, one of the partners has definitely contributed to the world's family tree.
- GuiA 12y ago
  Right, but if you drew a graph where nodes are humans and edges are links of genetic parentship, then you can build a complete graph without having to be aware of gay relationships. There's nothing morally wrong or right about this statement, it's just a mathematical property of a very particular social graph.
  - jeremysmyth 12y ago
    A complete graph (by some definition of "complete") documents the knowledge of who both parents are, and there are many situations where you cannot get such knowledge for practical or legal reasons.
  - troels 12y ago
    Depends on what exactly it is you want to map. From a purely genetic perspective you're right, but being a parent is certainly more than just contributing sperm/eggs. And besides - it's very hard to know if someone is indeed the biological father of a child, without resorting to dna testing. Who's the mother tends to be a bit more accurate, although that's also something that could be faked.
  - rmc 12y ago
    Family Trees (& software) support adoption. The "genetic only" horse bolted long ago. Why support adoption for different sex couples but not same sex couples?
rmc 12y ago
Adoption, children from previous marriage, artifical insemination and trans people are situtations where the family tree continues. Family trees also work sideways. If someone's brother marries a man, then that other man is the uncle to that person's children.

patio11 12y ago

Much like criticisms of the Catholic healthcare system for choices involved with starting and ending lives, I'd imagine the Mormons think "I can't help but noticing that we had to put in a hundred years of work before we had something impressive enough to justify your criticism, but if you want to replicate it to nose tweak us, I suppose that's going to be an educational experience all around."

ggreer 12y ago
At some point, a set of beliefs is so harmful that it would be borderline-unethical not to criticize them. Would you have made a similar comment if the Church of Latter-day Saints refused to recognize mixed-race marriages? In case you didn't know, such racism was LDS dogma until 1978. This project is impressive in its comprehensiveness, and I'm glad an organization has undertaken it. Still, the discriminatory, homophobic dogmas of the LDS church cannot be ignored, and criticism of these beliefs should not be discouraged. Only through discourse can they be challenged and obsoleted. The sooner that happens, the better.
- elpachuco 12y ago
  >>such racism was LDS dogma until 1978 Good to know. More proof all religions are crap.
  - davidw 12y ago
    Given: * patio11 is, afaik, a practicing Catholic. * patio11 contributes a great deal to this site. * He probably has a thick skin about it, but comments like that are probably not something he likes or will encourage him to use a site. My conclusion is that anything that takes us that far off topic should be flagged because it may have a negative impact on the value I get from the site. I came here to talk about startups and hacking, not religion or politics.
    - chroma 12y ago
      If patio11 was a Scientologist, would you say the same thing? We all draw a line somewhere. If you would react to Scientology differently, remember that the Catholic church has caused (and is causing) much more harm than the Church of Scientology. The former has burned people at the stake, conspired with the Nazis, helped spread AIDS, and covered up child rape. Note: I respect patio11 immensely and wish him nothing but happiness. I simply want to ensure your views are consistent. Edit: Can you answer my question more explicitly? Your response comes across as a tentative "yes" but I'm not certain.

vidarh 12y ago

Keep in mind that the Mormon's church has a very specific intent for this: The baptism of your ancestors. For them, recording a same-sex couple - disregarding that they don't agree with it - serves no purpose. So their project certainly is no replacement for a secular genealogical database, but it is still a fantastic source of data (my very-much atheist dad made extensive use of their services - he was able to get microfilm copies of Norwegian church books sent from Utah to the Mormon church in Oslo with much less effort than getting hold of copies of the records in Norway - in most cases the alternative would be to travel around the country to visit the specific churches and go through the actual paper copies)

barking 12y ago

Your comment just made me realise that family trees are going to become a lot more complicated in the future with same sex couples, sperm/egg donors, surrogacy etc. Also makes me wonder how an adopted person constructs a family tree.

aaronbrethorst 12y ago
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/05/16/dna-site-23andme-outed-parents-who-gave-their-first-baby-up-for-adoption/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/05/16/dna-site-...

joshdance 12y ago

Seems that religious entities are the only ones who care enough to try such a project. I am not aware of any other large scale family history project.

wglb 12y ago

It all sounds good until you get to the part where they don't include same sex couples It wouldn't at all surprise me that this eventually changes. If you look at the history, you will notice that their beliefs have changed in several significant ways over their history. As a side note, since my ancestors came to America in the 1850s, there has been at least one person in each generation that is very interested in family history. The effort got a boost when my uncle became Mormon shortly after he started his family. (An event not without controversy in the family.) The resources available for genealogy research as a result of this work are quite staggering.