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This may be stupid, but I am slightly concerned about visiting anything related to Tor or security because of my fearful suspicion that the NSA will flag me for

This may be stupid, but I am slightly concerned about visiting anything related to Tor or security because of my fearful suspicion that the NSA will flag me for closer observation. That said, me frequenting a site called "Hacker" News probably sets off some red flags somewhere anyway.

scrollaway 12y ago
You're on their list for that comment alone. The TLDR of the situation is that you shouldn't worry about what the NSA flags you as. They flagged everyone. Just assume you're on their list because you probably are anyway.
- kissickas 12y ago
  The Snowden releases have done exactly that - in a perverse way, they make me take many more risks online. "Everything I do is already being tracked, so I might as well search for that new Daesh (IS) video."
  - Goopplesoft 12y ago
    Yikes, it really irks me that this sort of deserved paranoia is what we've come to...
- justcommenting 12y ago
  No--Everyone is on the NSA's list, that is unjust, and I would encourage you to join others to work for justice by increasing the cost of suspicion-less surveillance through mutual aid and solidarity, like using the Tor Browser Bundle.
walterbell 12y ago
Professional surveillance usually outwits amateur thought self-policing. May as well enjoy freedom of thought instead. With more anonymous traffic, all parties are incented to raise their game. Does HN support Tor? Edit: read City and the City by China Mieville?
- privong 12y ago
  > Does HN support Tor? What do you mean by "support"? You can access HN through tor, though sometimes it is blocked (perhaps depending on which exit node you happen to be routed through).
  - teamhappy 12y ago
    He probably means a hidden service[1] similar to what DuckDuckGo does. (I'm pretty sure the answer is no). 1: https://www.torproject.org/docs/hidden-services https://www.torproject.org/docs/hidden-services
    - sarciszewski 12y ago
      Not sure why it doesn't. Maybe we can request it? :D
  - walterbell 12y ago
    I seem to recall that posts from Tor-only HN users were treated differently, but I could be wrong. I can't recall the details, maybe it was that Tor posts were only visible to those on Tor? Would need to test to make sure.
- mrinterweb 12y ago
  I wasn't making the assertion that HN supports Tor. I was just joking that some dumb flag bot in NSA's network likely flags all users visiting sites with words such as "hacker". I feel that fear of big brother is a limitation on citizens personal freedom since people will be more guarded about what they say, inquire about, and behave. No shifty behavior. The constable may be watching.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
krapp 12y ago
>That said, me frequenting a site called "Hacker" News probably sets off some red flags somewhere anyway. Probably less the name of the site as the confluence of money, power, technical expertise and occasionally violent anti-government rhetoric. Honestly, I find it surprising how many people seem to feel perfectly safe here while avoiding Facebook, Google, etc.
- mrinterweb 12y ago
  I think it was this article that makes me think that the NSA targets users inquiring about Tor: http://motherboard.vice.com/read/how-the-nsa-targets-tor-users http://motherboard.vice.com/read/how-the-nsa-targets-tor-use...
  - krapp 12y ago
    That's still a pretty noisy filter, though, incorporating millions of people. Even the government uses Tor.
    - tatterdemalion 12y ago
      > Even the government uses Tor. And government officials (esp. in other governments) are obvious targets for NSA surveillance.
PavlovsCat 12y ago
I look at it this way: a future for humanity where everybody is cowering before "big brother" is not worth calling that. So, why would I prepare for a case that is so bad that any nuances in it are essentially meaningless? Instead, I would rather be counted as someone who bit back at the very least, no matter in how small and futile a way. If the revolution comes, that will be my Persilschein, and if it doesn't, I'd rather be taken away sooner than later. You might say, I'm not as worried about "evil" people with power not liking me because they project their own sickness, I'm rather worried about good, powerless people not liking me for IMHO correct reasons.
- sroerick 12y ago
  Cheers. Thanks for your bravery. I've likened it to that scene in V for Vendetta. They can only take what you give them.
  - PavlovsCat 12y ago
    It's not bravery, not yet, anyway. I have never been threatened, and I figure before that changes, a lot of people who actually are brave, and much more of a threat to oppressors than I ever could hope to be, would disappear in some shape or form. So I'm not brave, I'm just slightly idealistic :)
chatmasta 12y ago
I went to a privacy conference in Europe this summer, featuring a former NSA official. The organizers explicitly asked me if I wanted to "be on the list," so of course I said yes. To my dismay, the TSA did not attempt to search me at my home airport. Perhaps the data had not propagated to screeening yet. Regardless, it seems harder than I initially thought to get onto one of these NSA lists.
frostmatthew 12y ago
> I am slightly concerned about visiting anything related to Tor or security because of my fearful suspicion that the NSA will flag me for closer observation. This is exactly what's wrong with the whole situation.
- mrinterweb 12y ago
  I wholeheartedly agree.
sroerick 12y ago
Don't be a coward. Read whatever you want to. For all the hullabaloo about censored books, surveilled reading is just as much of a threat to the formation of free ideas as censorship, if not more so.
- DINKDINK 12y ago
  Easier to be a hero if you're an American citizen but the FBI and NSA has a history of extorting people with tenuous citizenship: http://www.amazon.com/The-Terror-Factory-Manufactured-Terrorism/dp/1935439618 http://www.amazon.com/The-Terror-Factory-Manufactured-Terror...
  - sroerick 12y ago
    Interesting. I'll have to take a look at that. I've heard of much of this kind of behavior before. Doesn't this generally involve some form of entrapment, rather than mere browsing behavior? Important to consider, regardless.
    - DINKDINK 12y ago
      the book argues, quite successfully in my opinion, that these cases are entrapment. The government says that entrapment doesn't apply because terrorism.
higherpurpose 12y ago
You're right. That is stupid. That's exactly what NSA wants. For us to not even bother to try to use more privacy-friendly tools because "they may be watching us". Guess what. They are already watching us. All of us. Do you really think you have to be on a "Tor list" for the to spy on you? They have alerts on everything. If you say something they may not like online, you're probably already on a list. Tor or not.
panarky 12y ago
The best way to fight this is to make the list of suspicious people so long that it's intractable to pay attention to any of us.
nathanm412 12y ago
I feel that since I truly don't do anything that the NSA could be interested in, if I do something that puts me on their list for higher monitoring, I'm just wasting resources that they could be spending on looking for people who might be communicating with another Snowden. If I download and play with Tor, I'm really helping out people who are trying to exercise their rights. If the NSA 'list' includes everybody, then the list doesn't really have much value to them.
- junto 12y ago
  I think you have the wrong end of the stick. The NSA are making it their business to remove people who aren't interesting from the list of EVERYONE!
- vdnkh 12y ago
  >I feel that since I truly don't do anything that the NSA could be interested in How can you confidently say that you know what the NSA is interested in?

scrollaway 12y ago

You're on their list for that comment alone. The TLDR of the situation is that you shouldn't worry about what the NSA flags you as. They flagged everyone. Just assume you're on their list because you probably are anyway.

kissickas 12y ago
The Snowden releases have done exactly that - in a perverse way, they make me take many more risks online. "Everything I do is already being tracked, so I might as well search for that new Daesh (IS) video."
- Goopplesoft 12y ago
  Yikes, it really irks me that this sort of deserved paranoia is what we've come to...
justcommenting 12y ago
No--Everyone is on the NSA's list, that is unjust, and I would encourage you to join others to work for justice by increasing the cost of suspicion-less surveillance through mutual aid and solidarity, like using the Tor Browser Bundle.

walterbell 12y ago

Professional surveillance usually outwits amateur thought self-policing. May as well enjoy freedom of thought instead. With more anonymous traffic, all parties are incented to raise their game. Does HN support Tor? Edit: read City and the City by China Mieville?

privong 12y ago
> Does HN support Tor? What do you mean by "support"? You can access HN through tor, though sometimes it is blocked (perhaps depending on which exit node you happen to be routed through).
- teamhappy 12y ago
  He probably means a hidden service[1] similar to what DuckDuckGo does. (I'm pretty sure the answer is no). 1: https://www.torproject.org/docs/hidden-services https://www.torproject.org/docs/hidden-services
  - sarciszewski 12y ago
    Not sure why it doesn't. Maybe we can request it? :D
- walterbell 12y ago
  I seem to recall that posts from Tor-only HN users were treated differently, but I could be wrong. I can't recall the details, maybe it was that Tor posts were only visible to those on Tor? Would need to test to make sure.
mrinterweb 12y ago
I wasn't making the assertion that HN supports Tor. I was just joking that some dumb flag bot in NSA's network likely flags all users visiting sites with words such as "hacker". I feel that fear of big brother is a limitation on citizens personal freedom since people will be more guarded about what they say, inquire about, and behave. No shifty behavior. The constable may be watching.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

krapp 12y ago

>That said, me frequenting a site called "Hacker" News probably sets off some red flags somewhere anyway. Probably less the name of the site as the confluence of money, power, technical expertise and occasionally violent anti-government rhetoric. Honestly, I find it surprising how many people seem to feel perfectly safe here while avoiding Facebook, Google, etc.

mrinterweb 12y ago
I think it was this article that makes me think that the NSA targets users inquiring about Tor: http://motherboard.vice.com/read/how-the-nsa-targets-tor-users http://motherboard.vice.com/read/how-the-nsa-targets-tor-use...
- krapp 12y ago
  That's still a pretty noisy filter, though, incorporating millions of people. Even the government uses Tor.
  - tatterdemalion 12y ago
    > Even the government uses Tor. And government officials (esp. in other governments) are obvious targets for NSA surveillance.

PavlovsCat 12y ago

I look at it this way: a future for humanity where everybody is cowering before "big brother" is not worth calling that. So, why would I prepare for a case that is so bad that any nuances in it are essentially meaningless? Instead, I would rather be counted as someone who bit back at the very least, no matter in how small and futile a way. If the revolution comes, that will be my Persilschein, and if it doesn't, I'd rather be taken away sooner than later. You might say, I'm not as worried about "evil" people with power not liking me because they project their own sickness, I'm rather worried about good, powerless people not liking me for IMHO correct reasons.

sroerick 12y ago
Cheers. Thanks for your bravery. I've likened it to that scene in V for Vendetta. They can only take what you give them.
- PavlovsCat 12y ago
  It's not bravery, not yet, anyway. I have never been threatened, and I figure before that changes, a lot of people who actually are brave, and much more of a threat to oppressors than I ever could hope to be, would disappear in some shape or form. So I'm not brave, I'm just slightly idealistic :)

chatmasta 12y ago

I went to a privacy conference in Europe this summer, featuring a former NSA official. The organizers explicitly asked me if I wanted to "be on the list," so of course I said yes. To my dismay, the TSA did not attempt to search me at my home airport. Perhaps the data had not propagated to screeening yet. Regardless, it seems harder than I initially thought to get onto one of these NSA lists.

frostmatthew 12y ago

> I am slightly concerned about visiting anything related to Tor or security because of my fearful suspicion that the NSA will flag me for closer observation. This is exactly what's wrong with the whole situation.

mrinterweb 12y ago
I wholeheartedly agree.

sroerick 12y ago

Don't be a coward. Read whatever you want to. For all the hullabaloo about censored books, surveilled reading is just as much of a threat to the formation of free ideas as censorship, if not more so.

DINKDINK 12y ago
Easier to be a hero if you're an American citizen but the FBI and NSA has a history of extorting people with tenuous citizenship: http://www.amazon.com/The-Terror-Factory-Manufactured-Terrorism/dp/1935439618 http://www.amazon.com/The-Terror-Factory-Manufactured-Terror...
- sroerick 12y ago
  Interesting. I'll have to take a look at that. I've heard of much of this kind of behavior before. Doesn't this generally involve some form of entrapment, rather than mere browsing behavior? Important to consider, regardless.
  - DINKDINK 12y ago
    the book argues, quite successfully in my opinion, that these cases are entrapment. The government says that entrapment doesn't apply because terrorism.

higherpurpose 12y ago

You're right. That is stupid. That's exactly what NSA wants. For us to not even bother to try to use more privacy-friendly tools because "they may be watching us". Guess what. They are already watching us. All of us. Do you really think you have to be on a "Tor list" for the to spy on you? They have alerts on everything. If you say something they may not like online, you're probably already on a list. Tor or not.

panarky 12y ago

The best way to fight this is to make the list of suspicious people so long that it's intractable to pay attention to any of us.

nathanm412 12y ago

I feel that since I truly don't do anything that the NSA could be interested in, if I do something that puts me on their list for higher monitoring, I'm just wasting resources that they could be spending on looking for people who might be communicating with another Snowden. If I download and play with Tor, I'm really helping out people who are trying to exercise their rights. If the NSA 'list' includes everybody, then the list doesn't really have much value to them.

junto 12y ago
I think you have the wrong end of the stick. The NSA are making it their business to remove people who aren't interesting from the list of EVERYONE!
vdnkh 12y ago
>I feel that since I truly don't do anything that the NSA could be interested in How can you confidently say that you know what the NSA is interested in?