13 ms·

When Women Become Men at Wellesley

49 points by a5seo 12y ago

piratebroadcast 12y ago
homer_silently_backing_himself_into_the_bushes.gif
joyeuse6701 12y ago
>“The patriarchy is alive and well,” he said. “I don’t want to perpetuate it.” I laughed pretty hard at this one, the irony seems pretty lost here for Timothy. This could offer some serious introspection for the echo-chamber that is Wellesley. It's one of those case examples of an entity 'becoming what they hate'.
erceciooir 12y ago
I know two people who "become women" to get better treatment at university. Dance around it as you wish, but today women has 60% higher chance to graduate compared to men.
- alukima 12y ago
  You know two men who became trans for better treatment? Considering the issues trans people face you are full of shit. Interesting how accounts trying to claim that 'women have it so much better' are always green accounts. If you believe in your comment why not use your actual handle? Why do you think women have a better chance? What can you do to help men?
  - erceciooir 12y ago
    Take typical nerd, add mild depression and zero social life. I can ensure you that being trans will not make it much worse and will improve relations with authorities significantly. And in their cases it was 'administrative decision'. I argued a few times in person, results were unpleasant for my person, I am not going to do it again. 65% graduates are women, men do not even have universal voting right in US. Google is your friend.
    - alukima 12y ago
      Why do you think more women graduate? Why complain that women have it better than actively trying to make it better for men? I'm trying to figure out why you have such a skewed view of society. You're certainly incorrect about how trans people are treated, especially with authorities. What do you mean men don't have universal voting rights? Are you talking about felons?
      - erceciooir 12y ago
        Have a look at stats and laws. It is the senate and judges who has this view of society. I am not complaining about women having it better (good for them), I am just complaining men have it worse. I am saying that in most states being over 18, with clean record and mentally capable, does not automatically mean someone can vote (as women can). EDIT: there were questions about voting right. I can no longer answer since I was down-voted to oblivion. And because I am obviously "full of shit" I will not add links, just three hints: - Men has to register at two places, instead of just one. - Voting for men is a reward, not a right - I am more worried about student loans, not voting.
        matteotom 12y ago
        > I am saying that in most states being over 18, with clean record and mentally capable, does not automatically mean someone can vote (as women can). What are the situations in which men cannot vote if they are over 18, with a clean record and mentally capable?
        delecti 12y ago
        My best guess it that they're talking about selective service, but that's really a very minor formality.
        jessaustin 12y ago
        I'm guessing the unpopular poster is referring to selective service, for which men (and, TBH, trans women) must register, or forfeit numerous "rights". Because war. I hesitate to articulate this, being cis and all, but the strenuous denunciations of this greenbean seem to hint of something ugly in one's opinions of the whole notion of trans. As far as I know, I'm no relation to the Jesse Austin interviewed in TFA.
- GFK_of_xmaspast 12y ago
  When I think of people who have it made in modern day America, "trans women" are right up there at the top.
- unimpressive 12y ago
  Did it work? Just because somebody becomes trans doesn't mean they actually get comparable social treatment to a cis woman in practice.
  - erceciooir 12y ago
    Yes it worked, it is not about being comparable, they just sink bellow radar as a men.
- twidx 12y ago
  this person is obviously full of shit. nobody becomes a trans woman to receive "better treatment."
  - lnanek2 12y ago
    Honestly, I know countless gamers who play as women to get free stuff from men. I know if a woman was interested in applying for my engineering school she was flown in and wined and dined and met and fawned over by the deans. All the women's sports teams were fully funded and the men's teams all had to run charity events and sell tickets just to afford equipment. Women have a massive advantage in college applications and college programs in general. I can easily see people going through whatever legal requirements necessary to check female instead of male on their college application. Countless people already fake ADD symptoms to get Adderall to do better on tests. Why do you think they would identify as trans woman anywhere outside getting into college and experience any disadvantages?
kevinmchugh 12y ago
This is a great article. Tons of questions and not many answers, and that's okay. I'm glad to have places to look for inspiration when trying to celebrate my identity as a man in a way that doesn't marginalize anyone. I haven't found any good answers yet. It's really interesting to see how the student body is balancing their desire to be inclusive with a desire to retain an identity and common experiences. I also appreciated how the author and editor did a great job of making complicated issues about identity and tense and changing pronouns and changing names very simple and human and readable.
jcrites 12y ago
> Of all the people at a multiethnic women’s college who could hold the school’s “diversity” seat, the least fitting one was a white man. > “I thought he’d do a perfectly fine job, but it just felt inappropriate to have a white man there. It’s not just about that position either. Having men in elected leadership positions undermines the idea of this being a place where women are the leaders.” I find this concept both depressing and distressing. Any person can be capable, willing, and qualified to take on a role promoting diversity. Their gender, sex, race, or whatever else should not disqualify them and should hardly be a factor. I guess this shows that prejudice is unfortunately still common in modern society. Discriminating against e.g. white men in such a role is just as abhorrent to me as discriminating against any other groups in other circumstances. Certainly it's their right not to vote for him, but if the basis of their vote is simply his membership in some group, rather than his character or qualifications, then that's prejudice. It's sad and it needs to stop. We need to cease over-correcting for past discriminating by propagating new discrimination and prejudice into the modern day. > I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. Martin Luther King, Jr. Let's put discrimination to rest by selecting people for roles based on what we know about them as individuals: their capability, qualifications, and character. [Edit: minor rephrasing and added content.]
- MrZongle2 12y ago
  I find that concept really depressing. You're not the only one. Apparently even at what should be an enlightened women's college, sexism (and racism) is alive and well.
- lexcorvus 12y ago
  It is a fascinating double-standard. Compare to a similar sentiment someone might express: “I thought Obama would do a perfectly fine job, but it just felt inappropriate to have a black man as President of the United States.” Such a person would be pilloried as a racist. It's astonishing how often people imply or explicitly assert that white men don't understand what it's like to live in a society hostile to their race and sex. A cursory glance at, say, the New York Times shows that such hostility is in fact pervasive—even, bizarrely, among white men themselves.
nomansland 12y ago
This article illustrates how trans men are such an interesting problem for feminist institutions. Either you go along with the current trans party line, which is men are men, trans or cis, and they have no place at a women's institution/space. fin. This is an interesting expression of some really rigid thinking about binary gender. Or you take the "women and trans" position and place yourself as an institution for people of oppressed genders. You include anyone in the category of not cis men. You cease to specifically celebrate femininity at that point. You also start defining yourself in terms of cis men, which can be... problematic. I'm concerned with how this spills out in the tech industry and our current focus on gender. All of the gender equity campaigns at the moment are inclusive of women, the more liberal include trans women, but none of them appear to have any explicit inclusion of trans men or non binary gender people. Which I find curious since trans masculine people often share the same structural issues with cis women being: lack of access to STEM pre-education in gradeschool/highschool, reproductive realities which are disruptive to a tech career, lack of socialization as boys/access to old boys' network. Trans people, including trans masculine people, do not occur in large enough numbers to have multiple tech industry gender advocacy groups and the best they can do is hope that "women's" groups eventually advocate for them. I know of zero trans men in leadership positions in tech (eg, visible senior/staff engineers at the large companies, or actual management (PM doesn't count)), but I do know of quite a few trans women in these sorts of positions and even more cis women. Of course, the trans men in leadership could all be stealth, as I am (but I'm just a cog in the machine). I've worked in tech long enough, and have heard the stories of cis men when they think they are talking to another cis man, to know that the people tech are still deeply transphobic and we have such a long way to go.
ender89 12y ago
There's a whole "have your cake and eat it too" mentality going on here that's kind of upsetting. These trans students are men, and yet they are attending a women's college, living in women's dorms. They're apparently making waves because they're trying to remove the emphasis on gender(and women specifically) from a women's college. In other words, tim is trying to rob the university from its identity because he slipped in through a loop hole and feels discriminated against because (surprise!) the school is purpose built to exclude men. Would you agree with an atheist student at a private religious university trying to remove references to god from the school charter? or a religious student trying to add references to god to a public university charter? Of course not! Got to give it to Wellesley for not kicking his ass out upon realizing that he lied about the primary qualification for attendance, but I don't think that give him the right to try and remake the school in his own image.

49 points by a5seo 12y ago

homer_silently_backing_himself_into_the_bushes.gif

>“The patriarchy is alive and well,” he said. “I don’t want to perpetuate it.” I laughed pretty hard at this one, the irony seems pretty lost here for Timothy. This could offer some serious introspection for the echo-chamber that is Wellesley. It's one of those case examples of an entity 'becoming what they hate'.

erceciooir 12y ago

I know two people who "become women" to get better treatment at university. Dance around it as you wish, but today women has 60% higher chance to graduate compared to men.

alukima 12y ago
You know two men who became trans for better treatment? Considering the issues trans people face you are full of shit. Interesting how accounts trying to claim that 'women have it so much better' are always green accounts. If you believe in your comment why not use your actual handle? Why do you think women have a better chance? What can you do to help men?
- erceciooir 12y ago
  Take typical nerd, add mild depression and zero social life. I can ensure you that being trans will not make it much worse and will improve relations with authorities significantly. And in their cases it was 'administrative decision'. I argued a few times in person, results were unpleasant for my person, I am not going to do it again. 65% graduates are women, men do not even have universal voting right in US. Google is your friend.
  - alukima 12y ago
    Why do you think more women graduate? Why complain that women have it better than actively trying to make it better for men? I'm trying to figure out why you have such a skewed view of society. You're certainly incorrect about how trans people are treated, especially with authorities. What do you mean men don't have universal voting rights? Are you talking about felons?
    - erceciooir 12y ago
      Have a look at stats and laws. It is the senate and judges who has this view of society. I am not complaining about women having it better (good for them), I am just complaining men have it worse. I am saying that in most states being over 18, with clean record and mentally capable, does not automatically mean someone can vote (as women can). EDIT: there were questions about voting right. I can no longer answer since I was down-voted to oblivion. And because I am obviously "full of shit" I will not add links, just three hints: - Men has to register at two places, instead of just one. - Voting for men is a reward, not a right - I am more worried about student loans, not voting.
      - matteotom 12y ago
        > I am saying that in most states being over 18, with clean record and mentally capable, does not automatically mean someone can vote (as women can). What are the situations in which men cannot vote if they are over 18, with a clean record and mentally capable?
        delecti 12y ago
        My best guess it that they're talking about selective service, but that's really a very minor formality.
        jessaustin 12y ago
        I'm guessing the unpopular poster is referring to selective service, for which men (and, TBH, trans women) must register, or forfeit numerous "rights". Because war. I hesitate to articulate this, being cis and all, but the strenuous denunciations of this greenbean seem to hint of something ugly in one's opinions of the whole notion of trans. As far as I know, I'm no relation to the Jesse Austin interviewed in TFA.
GFK_of_xmaspast 12y ago
When I think of people who have it made in modern day America, "trans women" are right up there at the top.
unimpressive 12y ago
Did it work? Just because somebody becomes trans doesn't mean they actually get comparable social treatment to a cis woman in practice.
- erceciooir 12y ago
  Yes it worked, it is not about being comparable, they just sink bellow radar as a men.
twidx 12y ago
this person is obviously full of shit. nobody becomes a trans woman to receive "better treatment."
- lnanek2 12y ago
  Honestly, I know countless gamers who play as women to get free stuff from men. I know if a woman was interested in applying for my engineering school she was flown in and wined and dined and met and fawned over by the deans. All the women's sports teams were fully funded and the men's teams all had to run charity events and sell tickets just to afford equipment. Women have a massive advantage in college applications and college programs in general. I can easily see people going through whatever legal requirements necessary to check female instead of male on their college application. Countless people already fake ADD symptoms to get Adderall to do better on tests. Why do you think they would identify as trans woman anywhere outside getting into college and experience any disadvantages?

kevinmchugh 12y ago

This is a great article. Tons of questions and not many answers, and that's okay. I'm glad to have places to look for inspiration when trying to celebrate my identity as a man in a way that doesn't marginalize anyone. I haven't found any good answers yet. It's really interesting to see how the student body is balancing their desire to be inclusive with a desire to retain an identity and common experiences. I also appreciated how the author and editor did a great job of making complicated issues about identity and tense and changing pronouns and changing names very simple and human and readable.

jcrites 12y ago

> Of all the people at a multiethnic women’s college who could hold the school’s “diversity” seat, the least fitting one was a white man. > “I thought he’d do a perfectly fine job, but it just felt inappropriate to have a white man there. It’s not just about that position either. Having men in elected leadership positions undermines the idea of this being a place where women are the leaders.” I find this concept both depressing and distressing. Any person can be capable, willing, and qualified to take on a role promoting diversity. Their gender, sex, race, or whatever else should not disqualify them and should hardly be a factor. I guess this shows that prejudice is unfortunately still common in modern society. Discriminating against e.g. white men in such a role is just as abhorrent to me as discriminating against any other groups in other circumstances. Certainly it's their right not to vote for him, but if the basis of their vote is simply his membership in some group, rather than his character or qualifications, then that's prejudice. It's sad and it needs to stop. We need to cease over-correcting for past discriminating by propagating new discrimination and prejudice into the modern day. > I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. Martin Luther King, Jr. Let's put discrimination to rest by selecting people for roles based on what we know about them as individuals: their capability, qualifications, and character. [Edit: minor rephrasing and added content.]

MrZongle2 12y ago
I find that concept really depressing. You're not the only one. Apparently even at what should be an enlightened women's college, sexism (and racism) is alive and well.
lexcorvus 12y ago
It is a fascinating double-standard. Compare to a similar sentiment someone might express: “I thought Obama would do a perfectly fine job, but it just felt inappropriate to have a black man as President of the United States.” Such a person would be pilloried as a racist. It's astonishing how often people imply or explicitly assert that white men don't understand what it's like to live in a society hostile to their race and sex. A cursory glance at, say, the New York Times shows that such hostility is in fact pervasive—even, bizarrely, among white men themselves.

nomansland 12y ago

This article illustrates how trans men are such an interesting problem for feminist institutions. Either you go along with the current trans party line, which is men are men, trans or cis, and they have no place at a women's institution/space. fin. This is an interesting expression of some really rigid thinking about binary gender. Or you take the "women and trans" position and place yourself as an institution for people of oppressed genders. You include anyone in the category of not cis men. You cease to specifically celebrate femininity at that point. You also start defining yourself in terms of cis men, which can be... problematic. I'm concerned with how this spills out in the tech industry and our current focus on gender. All of the gender equity campaigns at the moment are inclusive of women, the more liberal include trans women, but none of them appear to have any explicit inclusion of trans men or non binary gender people. Which I find curious since trans masculine people often share the same structural issues with cis women being: lack of access to STEM pre-education in gradeschool/highschool, reproductive realities which are disruptive to a tech career, lack of socialization as boys/access to old boys' network. Trans people, including trans masculine people, do not occur in large enough numbers to have multiple tech industry gender advocacy groups and the best they can do is hope that "women's" groups eventually advocate for them. I know of zero trans men in leadership positions in tech (eg, visible senior/staff engineers at the large companies, or actual management (PM doesn't count)), but I do know of quite a few trans women in these sorts of positions and even more cis women. Of course, the trans men in leadership could all be stealth, as I am (but I'm just a cog in the machine). I've worked in tech long enough, and have heard the stories of cis men when they think they are talking to another cis man, to know that the people tech are still deeply transphobic and we have such a long way to go.

ender89 12y ago

There's a whole "have your cake and eat it too" mentality going on here that's kind of upsetting. These trans students are men, and yet they are attending a women's college, living in women's dorms. They're apparently making waves because they're trying to remove the emphasis on gender(and women specifically) from a women's college. In other words, tim is trying to rob the university from its identity because he slipped in through a loop hole and feels discriminated against because (surprise!) the school is purpose built to exclude men. Would you agree with an atheist student at a private religious university trying to remove references to god from the school charter? or a religious student trying to add references to god to a public university charter? Of course not! Got to give it to Wellesley for not kicking his ass out upon realizing that he lied about the primary qualification for attendance, but I don't think that give him the right to try and remake the school in his own image.