6 ms·

I'm guessing that criminals move in a little different circles than most people and it's their perception of "an average member of the community" that may be sk

I'm guessing that criminals move in a little different circles than most people and it's their perception of "an average member of the community" that may be skewed rather than perception of self.

pessimizer 12y ago
That's a bit of a false dilemma.
- elpachuco 12y ago
  You really need to explain what you mean because his explanation seems to make sense to me.
  - pessimizer 12y ago
    >it's their perception of "an average member of the community" that may be skewed rather than perception of self. My problem is with the word "rather." It can be any degree of either in combination.
    - mercer 12y ago
      You could argue that the two are intwined: how much of a 'self' do we really have that is not strongly linked to 'our' community?
- Crito 12y ago
  There doesn't have to be a problem with that explanation if you consider the possibility that what this study observed was not necessarily always the case. Perhaps generation 1 of criminals committed crimes out of perceived necessity, but did not believe themselves to be acting morally. They failed to stress this to their children however, perhaps due to some sense of pride, and the second generation is then raised to believe that crime is normal. This second generation, unlike the first, could have an inaccurate sense of what "normal" morality is.
  - pessimizer 12y ago
    It doesn't have to be either/or.
    - chc 12y ago
      It's extremely unlikely to be both in exactly equal portion, so insofar as we're looking for a primary cause, it probably is either/or.
gscott 12y ago
For some reason I am currently addicted to this show that follows inmates around in prison and one thing every inmate eventually says "I'm locked up with a bunch of criminals!". Then the second thing they do is compare their crime to another and concludes they are not nearly as bad as the rapist or killer. Amazingly people who kill, rape, etc are all together with someone who stole a car, broke into a house, was caught with drugs.
- anigbrowl 12y ago
  Which show is this, please? The ethics of crime are a complex subject, and while convicts' own views on the subject are generally self-serving there are shades of grey all over. For example, I knew a bar owner who murdered a heroin dealer, because one of the bar owner's friends OD'ed and died. So he waited until the heroin dealer went into the restroom at the bar one night, then followed him in and shot him dead. That's pretty cold-blooded (from a legal standpoint, advance planning like that is considered far worse than shooting someone in the heat of a dispute), but then it seems morally mild compared to murdering someone for personal gain. I can't find it now, but there was a really fascinating article posted here a year or so ago about an undercover cop whose specialty is pretending to be a hitman, and the people who attempt to hire his services. Maybe someone else will remember enough detail to turn it up in a search.
  - gscott 12y ago
    It is Locked Up available online too at http://www.msnbc.com/lockup http://www.msnbc.com/lockup. Basically the idea is to shove a lot of inmates into a small space and have them mill about aimlessly then see what happens.
mercer 12y ago
In my experience both are true (and intrinsically linked): people I know who engage in various degrees of criminal activity both move in circles where this is acceptable, and in large part because of these circles they perceive themselves as not being criminals (but rather misunderstood, fighting the man, not buying into society's beliefs, etc.). Another good example of this dynamic can be seen with alcoholics (whichever stage of alcoholism they might be in). I read recently that apparently about 30% of the US population does not drink at all, and about 10% are outliers (10+ drinks per day!). http://kottke.org/14/10/the-united-states-of-alcoholism http://kottke.org/14/10/the-united-states-of-alcoholism. Having been a non-drinker for most of my life, and a heavy drinker for part of my life, in both cases I felt I was (mostly) 'average'. Of course, what I failed to take into account was that in my non-drinking period I was part of a community of non-drinkers, and I barely interacted with those who drink a lot, whereas in my drinking period I didn't interact with the 'boring lot' who don't drink and leave parties at such early times as 12 PM. Another example of this is sexuality. I spent a significant period of of my life practicing abstinence (conservative christian), and a more recent period in an environment where casual sex was the norm. I always thought that this more recent period was the actual 'normal', until I decided to look up 'actual' averages. I thought having a sexual partner count in the double-digits was pretty normal, but apparently here in Holland the average amount of partners is around 6, and the median is lower than that.

I'm guessing that criminals move in a little different circles than most people and it's their perception of "an average member of the community" that may be skewed rather than perception of self.

pessimizer 12y ago

That's a bit of a false dilemma.

elpachuco 12y ago
You really need to explain what you mean because his explanation seems to make sense to me.
- pessimizer 12y ago
  >it's their perception of "an average member of the community" that may be skewed rather than perception of self. My problem is with the word "rather." It can be any degree of either in combination.
  - mercer 12y ago
    You could argue that the two are intwined: how much of a 'self' do we really have that is not strongly linked to 'our' community?
Crito 12y ago
There doesn't have to be a problem with that explanation if you consider the possibility that what this study observed was not necessarily always the case. Perhaps generation 1 of criminals committed crimes out of perceived necessity, but did not believe themselves to be acting morally. They failed to stress this to their children however, perhaps due to some sense of pride, and the second generation is then raised to believe that crime is normal. This second generation, unlike the first, could have an inaccurate sense of what "normal" morality is.
- pessimizer 12y ago
  It doesn't have to be either/or.
  - chc 12y ago
    It's extremely unlikely to be both in exactly equal portion, so insofar as we're looking for a primary cause, it probably is either/or.

gscott 12y ago

For some reason I am currently addicted to this show that follows inmates around in prison and one thing every inmate eventually says "I'm locked up with a bunch of criminals!". Then the second thing they do is compare their crime to another and concludes they are not nearly as bad as the rapist or killer. Amazingly people who kill, rape, etc are all together with someone who stole a car, broke into a house, was caught with drugs.

anigbrowl 12y ago
Which show is this, please? The ethics of crime are a complex subject, and while convicts' own views on the subject are generally self-serving there are shades of grey all over. For example, I knew a bar owner who murdered a heroin dealer, because one of the bar owner's friends OD'ed and died. So he waited until the heroin dealer went into the restroom at the bar one night, then followed him in and shot him dead. That's pretty cold-blooded (from a legal standpoint, advance planning like that is considered far worse than shooting someone in the heat of a dispute), but then it seems morally mild compared to murdering someone for personal gain. I can't find it now, but there was a really fascinating article posted here a year or so ago about an undercover cop whose specialty is pretending to be a hitman, and the people who attempt to hire his services. Maybe someone else will remember enough detail to turn it up in a search.
- gscott 12y ago
  It is Locked Up available online too at http://www.msnbc.com/lockup http://www.msnbc.com/lockup. Basically the idea is to shove a lot of inmates into a small space and have them mill about aimlessly then see what happens.

mercer 12y ago

In my experience both are true (and intrinsically linked): people I know who engage in various degrees of criminal activity both move in circles where this is acceptable, and in large part because of these circles they perceive themselves as not being criminals (but rather misunderstood, fighting the man, not buying into society's beliefs, etc.). Another good example of this dynamic can be seen with alcoholics (whichever stage of alcoholism they might be in). I read recently that apparently about 30% of the US population does not drink at all, and about 10% are outliers (10+ drinks per day!). http://kottke.org/14/10/the-united-states-of-alcoholism http://kottke.org/14/10/the-united-states-of-alcoholism. Having been a non-drinker for most of my life, and a heavy drinker for part of my life, in both cases I felt I was (mostly) 'average'. Of course, what I failed to take into account was that in my non-drinking period I was part of a community of non-drinkers, and I barely interacted with those who drink a lot, whereas in my drinking period I didn't interact with the 'boring lot' who don't drink and leave parties at such early times as 12 PM. Another example of this is sexuality. I spent a significant period of of my life practicing abstinence (conservative christian), and a more recent period in an environment where casual sex was the norm. I always thought that this more recent period was the actual 'normal', until I decided to look up 'actual' averages. I thought having a sexual partner count in the double-digits was pretty normal, but apparently here in Holland the average amount of partners is around 6, and the median is lower than that.